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javajanesdotcom
Senior Member
javajanesdotcom
Joined: 29 Apr 2009
Posts: 9
Location: South Jersey USA
Expertise: Pro Roaster

Espresso: LaCimballi, Futurmat
Grinder: Grindmaster, Ditting,...
Vac Pot: Zjorski (spelling)??
Drip: BUNN
Roaster: Diedrich IR3
Posted Tue Apr 8, 2014, 4:13pm
Subject: LaCimbali Bistro M30 2 group
 

Hey Java Geeks! I need your help! So I am just starting my machine up after a long winter. I own 2 seasonal coffee stands that operate basically Easter to LaborDay. I always drain the machines and pack them up for the winter. Well, this was a very intense winter and I done did some damage. I never take the group heads apart, I just drain the boiler and lines. Well, the heat exchangers always have about 6 ounces of water in them, and this year they froze and ruptured. Sucks for me. I have to cut and pry them out. But that is not why I am posting.
When I hooked the water up and turned the machine on, the auto fill did it's job and then turned off like normal, however as the machine was heating up, water was still entering the boiler. It started to flow out of the anti vacuum valve on the top of the boiler. So my question is how does the water keep entering the boiler? There must be a valve that has gone kaput, but before I start replacing parts, I thought that I would check here first. Any ideas would be great. I tried calling pasqiuni, but their parts department never answers their phone and does not return my calls when I leave a message. Very frustrating. I need this thing up and running by next weekend.
I am also having a problem with the heating element not shutting off all of the time. This has been happening on and off for the last couple of years. It will stay on and then the safety release valve will blow. It will do this a couple of times and then stop, and work fine. I am assuming this is the pressure stat getting hung up.
Any help will be greatly appreciated! Thanks,  Brian
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calblacksmith
Moderator
calblacksmith
Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 7,772
Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A.
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: ECM Vene. A1, La Cimbali M32
Grinder: Azkoyen Capriccio, Major
Vac Pot: 40s era Silex
Drip: Msl. Com. brewers
Roaster: gave it a try, decided no
Posted Wed Apr 9, 2014, 6:19am
Subject: Re: LaCimbali Bistro M30 2 group
 

Hello.
I own a M32 single group, not quite the same machine but similar. I suspect that the fill valve has a leak. Even though the pump is off, the fill valve can be leaking and I am guessing you are on city water and plumbed in. The city pressure can continue to fill the machine even with the pump off if the fill valve is not sealing correctly.

It also sounds like the Pstat is having issues as you have guessed.  The Pstat on my machine is a very robust unit designed by La Cimbali. It uses a micro switch that is actuated by a spring balanced mech. It is simple in design and should be easy to trouble shoot.

A link to my rebuild thread. Among the pics, there is one of a solonid valve so you can see how they are made.

Click Here (coffeegeek.com)

 
In real life, my name is
Wayne P.
Anything I post is personal opinion and is only worth as much as anyone else's personal opinion. YMMV!

Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
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javajanesdotcom
Senior Member
javajanesdotcom
Joined: 29 Apr 2009
Posts: 9
Location: South Jersey USA
Expertise: Pro Roaster

Espresso: LaCimballi, Futurmat
Grinder: Grindmaster, Ditting,...
Vac Pot: Zjorski (spelling)??
Drip: BUNN
Roaster: Diedrich IR3
Posted Wed Apr 9, 2014, 8:36pm
Subject: Re: LaCimbali Bistro M30 2 group
 

Thanks for your reply!Cool thread for your machine! I will take apart my auto fill valve tomorrow. Probably some shmutz stuck in there keeping the piston from closing, or the seal is shot. I have never taken apart any of the valves in my LaCimbali. I did a partial rebuild and boiler descaling two years ago, but didn't mess with much more other than cleaning the group heads and new group head gaskets and screens and I also replaced a handful of o rings, oh... I also had to get a new touch pad for the dose functions.  I have the boiler out right now as tomorrow morning I will start to cut out the heat exchangers.
I did a full rebuild on one of my Futurmats last year and the fill valve looks very similiar to the Cimbali. I will start there. I finally got through to Pasquini today and the parts guy said the same thing that you did, but wanted to sell me a new one. I'll take it apart first, if I see some crap in there hopefully a clean out will get her to stop the water flow. It is a plumbed in machine, so the water pressure is around 60-80 psi.
As for the pstat...mine is the original LaCimbali pstat that came with the machine. My machine is about 15 years old and I do not have it on any kind of water softener. So, according to the Pasquini guy, it is most likely funked up with scale and residue. It is an expensive part though. He also told me that I should replace the pressure relief valve too. He said as the valve blows, the spring inside gets weaker, and will blow sooner than it is rated for.
I'm going to order all of my parts tomorrow so hopefully I have them by monday.
I do have a question for you though, my machine doesn't have a bar gauge, just a temperature gauge. How do you measure the bar in the machine? I remember years ago before I started repairing my machines, I had an espresso machine repair guy change my group head gaskets, and he had a portifilter that had a gauge built into it. Is that the only way? And to adjust the bar, do I use the set screw on the pump?
Thanks for your help,  Brian
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calblacksmith
Moderator
calblacksmith
Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 7,772
Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A.
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: ECM Vene. A1, La Cimbali M32
Grinder: Azkoyen Capriccio, Major
Vac Pot: 40s era Silex
Drip: Msl. Com. brewers
Roaster: gave it a try, decided no
Posted Thu Apr 10, 2014, 6:27am
Subject: Re: LaCimbali Bistro M30 2 group
 

You have been inside machines so it is a piece of cake for you to disassemble the fill valve. As we hope, all that is wrong is scale holding it open.

Without a plumbed in gauge, the easiest was is with a PF mounted gauge, it reads the true pressure at the brew head. The only gauge on my machine is the static boiler pressure or in other words, the temp of the boiler in bar.

I did not adjust anything on the pump but you can see in the thread where I cleaned and adjsuted the OPV valve for pressure. I started by measuring the "stick out" of the adjustment screw to get it in the ball park on reassembly. The piston was frozen with scale on my machine and yours may be too. I had to break it loose with a screw driver to disassemble it.

The Pressure stat is easy to clean too, as the stock one on my machine uses a micro switch not a built in set of contacts, the switch was simply removed before disassembling the tube assy, again it was full of scale and it benifited from a good cleaning. I don't see any reason for you to not take yours apart and try to clean it. The WORST that can happen is you need to buy a new one! :D

 
In real life, my name is
Wayne P.
Anything I post is personal opinion and is only worth as much as anyone else's personal opinion. YMMV!

Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
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javajanesdotcom
Senior Member
javajanesdotcom
Joined: 29 Apr 2009
Posts: 9
Location: South Jersey USA
Expertise: Pro Roaster

Espresso: LaCimballi, Futurmat
Grinder: Grindmaster, Ditting,...
Vac Pot: Zjorski (spelling)??
Drip: BUNN
Roaster: Diedrich IR3
Posted Thu Apr 10, 2014, 8:45pm
Subject: Re: LaCimbali Bistro M30 2 group
 

Ok, so I dismantled the auto fill valve. Surprisingly it was very clean. It had a small ring of a hard crust where the o ring is supposed to seal against the valve body. I used some steel wool and cleaned it up. The o ring is worn and after reassembly, when I blew into the valve some air was passing by. I ordered a new o ring and a new spring. That should fix my over filling problem.

As for the pressure stat, it was all convoluted. Scale and a cement like paste in there. I did the same steel wool cleanup and put back together. Fortunately the bellows was still in good shape. No tears or disfigurement. I reassembled, and hopefully that takes care of the over pressurizing of the boiler. I included a pic. I was actually surprised to see all of the scale in there. The auto fill valve was pretty clean, so I expected the same for the pstat. There are no internal parts available for the pstat, and the guy at Pasquini said they never rebuild them, they just replace them. The part is $180, so I am going to wait and see what happens.

As for the heat exchangers, wow, what a pain in the arse. When they froze, they expanded until the metal broke. Getting them out of the boiler was a 4 hour process. First I tried cutting one side from top to bottom, and then used pliers to try to roll the metal in so it would slip through the hole. Nope. Then I had to unroll it and cut the other side from top to bottom...cutting the thing in halves. I used a sawsall, a cold chisel and a loose hack saw blade to achieve this. What a fricken pain  times 2. For now on, at the end of the season, the group heads come off and the exchangers get emptied. I should have taken a picture or two to show what they are, since most people don't know, but I was to busy in my anguish to think about it.

I have new exchangers and o rings comming, and also I might as well replace the group head gaskets while they're off of the machine, so I have them comming too.

I will post how everything works after I get the machine back together. Parts will be here by Tuesday or Wednesday. I hope it all works, because I need it for the Easter weekend. I have a back up machine, but it is only a single group, and I like the Cimbali better.

Thanks for your help CBSmith, Brian.......to be continued........

javajanesdotcom: pstat.jpg
(Click for larger image)
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javajanesdotcom
Senior Member
javajanesdotcom
Joined: 29 Apr 2009
Posts: 9
Location: South Jersey USA
Expertise: Pro Roaster

Espresso: LaCimballi, Futurmat
Grinder: Grindmaster, Ditting,...
Vac Pot: Zjorski (spelling)??
Drip: BUNN
Roaster: Diedrich IR3
Posted Thu Apr 10, 2014, 8:51pm
Subject: Re: LaCimbali Bistro M30 2 group
 

So, CBSmith, on your thread, your pictures are big and clear. When I went to post my picture, the site says it was to big, needs to be 75kb max. So I reduced it's size to 73.5kb, and there is a small picture with a large white area? What did I do wrong? Thanks
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boar_d_laze
Senior Member


Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 1,256
Location: Monrovia, CA
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: La Cimbali M21 DT/1 Junior...
Grinder: Ceado E92; "Bunnzilla"
Vac Pot: Royal Coffee Maker
Drip: Chemex + Kone; Espro Press
Roaster: USRC Sample Roaster
Posted Thu Apr 10, 2014, 9:08pm
Subject: Re: LaCimbali Bistro M30 2 group
 

I use Pasquini for Cimbali parts, but they're only 30 minutes from where I live, and are close to a couple of restaurants my wife likes.  

You might want to try Chris Coffee.  They're a lot closer to you, so shipping should be faster; and they have a fairly complete stock of Cimbali parts as well as some Cimbali savvy techs - particularly Roger. Don't know about good mole colorado in Chris's neighborhood though

Rich
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javajanesdotcom
Senior Member
javajanesdotcom
Joined: 29 Apr 2009
Posts: 9
Location: South Jersey USA
Expertise: Pro Roaster

Espresso: LaCimballi, Futurmat
Grinder: Grindmaster, Ditting,...
Vac Pot: Zjorski (spelling)??
Drip: BUNN
Roaster: Diedrich IR3
Posted Thu Apr 10, 2014, 9:21pm
Subject: Re: LaCimbali Bistro M30 2 group
 

Don't know about good mole colorado in Chris's neighborhood though

OK, I will look them up. I never heard of them before. Thanks! But, I must ask, what  is meant by "good mole in Chris's neighborhood"?
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boar_d_laze
Senior Member


Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 1,256
Location: Monrovia, CA
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: La Cimbali M21 DT/1 Junior...
Grinder: Ceado E92; "Bunnzilla"
Vac Pot: Royal Coffee Maker
Drip: Chemex + Kone; Espro Press
Roaster: USRC Sample Roaster
Posted Thu Apr 10, 2014, 10:25pm
Subject: Re: LaCimbali Bistro M30 2 group
 

Remember I said Pasquini is near several of my wife's favorite restaurants?

One of those is a place called Guelagetza, a Oaxacan joint which does a number of very nice moles (pronounced MO lays), which are slow cooked, multi-layered sauces -- and not always made with chocolate.  Mole colorado is one of those; so delicious it makes old sandals taste good.

Rich
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calblacksmith
Moderator
calblacksmith
Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 7,772
Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A.
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: ECM Vene. A1, La Cimbali M32
Grinder: Azkoyen Capriccio, Major
Vac Pot: 40s era Silex
Drip: Msl. Com. brewers
Roaster: gave it a try, decided no
Posted Fri Apr 11, 2014, 6:20am
Subject: Re: LaCimbali Bistro M30 2 group
 

javajanesdotcom Said:

So, CBSmith, on your thread, your pictures are big and clear. When I went to post my picture, the site says it was to big, needs to be 75kb max. So I reduced it's size to 73.5kb, and there is a small picture with a large white area? What did I do wrong? Thanks

Posted April 10, 2014 link

It is all in HOW you reduce the size. I have some photo editing software that lets me set the compression of the photo, it still is under the limit but if you really looked close, it is not so clear as it seems.

Some software reduces the photos simply by reducing the size, some will let you adjust the compression and I do both, I adjust the image to 72dpi, reduce the size of the "new" photo to about 5 x 7 then set compression to let the final file size be under the size limit. I know it is a pain to work with the limits of the software but it can be done! :P

 
In real life, my name is
Wayne P.
Anything I post is personal opinion and is only worth as much as anyone else's personal opinion. YMMV!

Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
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