Posted Wed Aug 11, 2004, 9:10am Subject: Re: Buying an HX Machine in Australia: CKX/Wega Lyra, Giotto or Cimbali Junior
ck72 Said:
I bought a San Marino CKX just over a month ago and have been very happy with it.....
I too had a looked at the WEGA and the only differences that I could identify after speaking to a rep at Genovese is that it has a rotary pump which i think is more suited as a plumb in unit and the boiler is not copper or brass like the San Marino but aluminium (I think) I would say that this would also be another reason why the heating element is rated at 1500W rather than 1300W on the CKX.
I won't post a time, I'll post a graph of temperatures versus time and leave it to coffee geeks to make their own minds up. Where to place the temperature probe (it's a thin pair of wires) will be interesting. I was thinking of feeding it up inside the portafilter and placing it in contact with the centre of the shower screen? Any other suggestions? As you suggest below, a normal warm up is not a static process (ie machine just sitting there) you almost certainly can speed the warm up by flushing it etc. I will check both. The cup warmer temperature should be straightforward - I'll place the probe under a couple of cups. Anywhere else you'd like me to check?
JonR10 Said:
I respectfully disagree with this statement. Any decent machine, properly prepared and flushed can (in capable hands) consistently produce excellent results (assuming you're using good beans) from the very first shot.
Whenever I start using a new blend (every couple of days lately) I will grind just enough coffee to run a "test shot" to check my grind and tamp for the new blend. Normally the tester is excellent (but I have already learned some basics - like I will grind a little finer for decaf blends).
In my experience, it is my technique that needs practice due to constant changes in beans and conditions. Once the machine is "dialed in" and properly prepped it should produce consistent results every single shot (including the first one).
Maybe I've seen too many baristas prep machines by making a double and then say "OK NOW we're ready!" :-) I'm looking forward to testing your opinion with my new machine once I get a bit more experience with it. I'm already very impressed with the first shots I can get out of it after just a week of using it compared to the first shots I normally get out of my Domus.
Makes sense to me. It should be fairly obvious where the temp levels out.
short_black Said:
Where to place the temperature probe (it's a thin pair of wires) will be interesting. I was thinking of feeding it up inside the portafilter and placing it in contact with the centre of the shower screen? Any other suggestions? <snip> Anywhere else you'd like me to check?
My only suggestion is to include a check of the heaviest chunk of metal in the brew path farthest from the heat source. If the exterior of the group is at steady state don't you think the shower screen is also at temperature?
short_black Said:
Maybe I've seen too many baristas prep machines by making a double and then say "OK NOW we're ready!" :-)
I do this myself. I consider myself "ready" because I checked the grind and tamp to start my session. I'm an engineer (BSME) so I believe that a good machine does the same thing repeatably every cycle: produce consistently controlled-temperature water to flow at a given rate and pressure (to overcome the resistance from the puck).
If the machine starts from it's steady state and has the ability to recover smoothly from each shot (like yours does) then I can't imagine what characteristic of the machine would change after the first shot or two. But, I'm open to possibility.
FXDXT Senior Member Joined: 14 Sep 2002 Posts: 165 Location: Sandy, OR Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: La Spaziale Vivaldi II Grinder: Cimbali Max Hybrid Vac Pot: Sunbean Drip: Vac: Royal Balance Brewer Roaster: RK Drum Roaster/Hottop
Posted Wed Aug 18, 2004, 4:43pm Subject: Re: Buying an HX Machine in Australia: CKX/Wega Lyra, Giotto or Cimbali Junior
The Lyra does NOT have an aluminum boiler nor is it made from sheet metal and have fittings that are crimped on.
As far as the material it could be either SS or copper with a nickel clad. A magnet is only slightly attracted to it, leading me to believe it is SS. Yes some SS have a high enough carbon content to be magnetic.
Posted Wed Aug 18, 2004, 5:02pm Subject: Re: Buying an HX Machine in Australia: CKX/Wega Lyra, Giotto or Cimbali Junior
FXDXT Said:
The Lyra does NOT have an aluminum boiler nor is it made from sheet metal and have fittings that are crimped on.
As far as the material it could be either SS or copper with a nickel clad. A magnet is only slightly attracted to it, leading me to believe it is SS. Yes some SS have a high enough carbon content to be magnetic.
OK - I believe it. Nothing wrong with a SS boiler IMO.
SO! Have you made a decision regarding your purchase? What factors weigh the most for you? (Cost? Looks? Internals?)
The advice I always give about THE decision, FWIW:
Which one would you most prefer to wake up with every day? At the level you're considering, ALL of the candidates will make excellent espresso and have plenty of steaming power for milk drinks, and with good practices all of these machines can last for many years to come...
So who do you like best (and why)? You will probably be more than pleased using any of these if you're stepping up from the Quaha (not that there's anything wrong with Quaha, but any of your candidates are a serious upgrade)...
Anyway, I am interested to know (and it WAS the original thread here).
Posted Wed Aug 18, 2004, 11:38pm Subject: Re: Buying an HX Machine in Australia: CKX/Wega Lyra, Giotto or Cimbali Junior
JonR10 Said:
SO! Have you made a decision regarding your purchase? What factors weigh the most for you? (Cost? Looks? Internals?)
The advice I always give about THE decision, FWIW:
Which one would you most prefer to wake up with every day? At the level you're considering, ALL of the candidates will make excellent espresso and have plenty of steaming power for milk drinks, and with good practices all of these machines can last for many years to come...
So who do you like best (and why)? You will probably be more than pleased using any of these if you're stepping up from the Quaha (not that there's anything wrong with Quaha, but any of your candidates are a serious upgrade)...
Still working it out but (besides from being amazed that someone actually wants to get a thread back onto the topic it started with):
I had these factors, in no particular order as I find them all relevant: (a) Group Head - is it, as good as, an e61 (b) Thermosyphon - does it have it and does it matter if it doesn't (c) Boiler Size - just out of interest - under 1.4L I think is too small and over 2.5L too large to justify heating that much water (d) Boiler material - now a none issue - stainless steel, brass, copper are IMO much of a muchness (e) Water Res Size - at least 1.9L (f) Heating Element - suitable for the boiler size (g) Switch or Lever - now a none issue (h) Preinfusion - does it have it and does it matter (i) Heat up time - ideally one hour or less (j) Shot quality - they all have it (k) Steaming ability for milk and ergonomics of steam wand - they all have it, wands need to be on a unidirectional ball joint (l) Takes a duralex glass under spouts - I don't want to be throwing coffee from one cup into another losing heat along the way (m) Ease of fit for large milk jugs (n) Hot water tap (o) Noise level when operating (especially pump sound and boiler sound) - just on the look out for excessively noisy operation.
If they pass the above threshold then its internals, looks and cost in that order.
Cimbal has best internals. I mark the other two equal instead of hair splitting.
Giotto, for me has the looks, closely followed by Cimbali and CKX trailing along behind.
Cost: CKX (bargain), Giotto (reasonable based on looks and the e61 which the CKX doesn't have), Cimbali (relatively expensive on all factors except internals - which is what you are paying for)
After sales service: Cimbali will be the best without a doubt given my experience with other servicing mobs - which makes me lean very hard towards this option unless I can get Giotto or CKX serviced by the mob who do Cimbali in which case I will simply dither a bit longer. I have already put the savings plan in place and put my superfluous former hobby items on the market to fund my coffee in case it is Cimbali.
Skarsnik Senior Member Joined: 24 Apr 2004 Posts: 159 Location: Australia (Perth) Expertise: Pro Barista
Espresso: None Grinder: None
Posted Thu Aug 19, 2004, 4:51am Subject: Re: Buying an HX Machine in Australia: CKX/Wega Lyra, Giotto or Cimbali Junior
Heya Alec, It sounds like you've almost convinced yourself to get a Cimbali...
To help your decision along, from my initial impressions of the CKX (Wega Lyra):
The water reserve really is too small 1.3 ltr.
The steam wand isn't good, it takes under 5 seconds to froth a cup of milk, which dosn't leave time for technique. You cannot unscrew and replace the nozzel as its a single piece of metal. On top of that the wand is just too short.
The PF is annoying for a couple of reasons. One; the metal slot things that lock the PF into the head are at a 45 degree angle, so holding the PF in front of you one of the slots is at 1:30 and the other is at 7:30 which is just brain damaged. And two, the PF just dosn't fit the head well.
If you havn't noticed yet, i'm pretty critical. And on the other side of the coin after plumbing it in, a wand replacement and a bit of getting used to the stupid PF it could be a perfect machine with a saving of $1100 over the Cimbali...
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