andiron Senior Member Joined: 17 Nov 2004 Posts: 142 Location: Austin, TX Expertise: Just starting
Espresso: Isomac Relax Grinder: Rocky Doserless
Posted Wed Nov 24, 2004, 7:34pm Subject: Please "DE-FRUSTRATE" me
Okay...so now that Expobar wants to keep their machines for themselves please help me. I have started a few other threads. The Frankenretro thread, Expobar Pods thread and Christmas Gift for My wife threads. All these threads brought me around to the $599 Pulser. Should have been called the POOFer...cuz it just went poof and disappeared!
Through other peoples help I wrangled with the question of what to get for my Starbucks -milk -filled -coffee drinking wife. All kinds of angles were placed out for discussion...way too much to repeat. In the end I decided that I wanted her to have the convenience of the hx machine because of the convenience of that type of machine when making the milk drinks. At first this was not apparent and I focused on inexpensive machines that might have pods etc. Then I found evidence that Expobars could use pods with a single filter basket available at WLL. So I woke up fresh this morning thinking...hmm...I will just wait until after Thanksgiving so as to be within 30 days and buy the Pulser. Instead I got a shocker thanks to my usual visit to the WLL website.
So I'm pretty frustrated which is being extremely polite. In fact I am having an extreme anger management problem right about now but so far haven't bludgeoned anyone to death.
So...even if I pay a few hundred more it seems evident that I should do something fast as gouging might be the new fad. I have spent at least 60 hours online researching like a compulsive maniac (absolutely conservative estimate) at this point and just about have worn myself completely out. I really want a nice machine for my wife this holiday...please help.
I saw the Isomac Relax listed in the discussions by JonR10. Can't help but think it's price will be raised next like another poster warned. This might be one for me to hone in on...but know nothing about it and it's appropriatness for my newbie wife. There are no reviews at WLL.
The irony here is that I thought cheap was the best to start my wife out with...but started thinking the process would be faster and more enjoyable with a nicer machine. I just never dreamed I would even consider $600 let alone more. I don't mind creeping up at this point...but my qualifications are:
The machine/s recommended must be as least as good of a performer in all aspects as the Expobar Pulser... In other words, please recommend machines that have at least as good of: Looks, warranty, support, ease of use, quality and availability of parts. I'm not ready to settle except for spending a little more. Of course I don't want my money to go to Expobar at this point.
This info will save me precious time since I've already wasted an incredible amount of time. Really will appreciate the responses...Thanks!
Posted Wed Nov 24, 2004, 8:12pm Subject: Re: Please "DE-FRUSTRATE" me
andiron Said:
I saw the Isomac Relax listed in the discussions by JonR10. Can't help but think it's price will be raised next like another poster warned. This might be one for me to hone in on...but know nothing about it and it's appropriatness for my newbie wife. There are no reviews at WLL.
Posted Wed Nov 24, 2004, 8:20pm Subject: Re: Please "DE-FRUSTRATE" me
andiron Said:
The machine/s recommended must be as least as good of a performer in all aspects as the Expobar Pulser... In other words, please recommend machines that have at least as good of: Looks, warranty, support, ease of use, quality and availability of parts. I'm not ready to settle except for spending a little more. Of course I don't want my money to go to Expobar at this point.
At the price point that the Expobar is going for currently, I would probably go for either the Isomac Relax or Tea. Personally, if I were to spend that much, I would go for the Tea because I like the looks of the exposed lever-activated E61 group. The E61 probably has better thermal stability than the group of the Relax, but the Relax also has a good group design with thermosypon for good thermal stability. Pricing the Pulser in the same price range as a Tea seems absurd to me. The Pulser lacks the pressure gauges that the Isomacs have and recently some users (including myself) have been reporting the Expobars running hot and having to use lower pressurestat settings to compensate. The Pulser was an excellent value at $599, but there are better machines at it's new price range. All this tells me that WLL is about to raise the prices on Isomacs as well. Aabree already has the new increases in place and WLL has raised the prices on the Millennium to 1399, and it is a virtually identical machine. (although CC still has them for $999) If the Isomacs increase, I would probably choose the Andreja Premium from Chris, which looks to be an excellent machine. Another route to consider since you were planning on using pods would be the $725 Livia deal from Illy (with a year coffee membership). Even if you change your mind and decide not to use pods, you could sell them on ebay to recover most of the money spent on them and you would still have a great deal on a Liva.
andiron Senior Member Joined: 17 Nov 2004 Posts: 142 Location: Austin, TX Expertise: Just starting
Espresso: Isomac Relax Grinder: Rocky Doserless
Posted Wed Nov 24, 2004, 8:59pm Subject: Re: Please "DE-FRUSTRATE" me
Thanks for the replies...I am looking at the Isomacs tonight...frantically. It's either that your the Solis SL90....but it seems more apparent now that the ease of use and ability to more easily create milk drinks will come with the HX machines.
Mike...about the pods. According to WLL there is a single filter basket doo hicky thing that can be used on E61 machines. I actually looked in the tips section for the Isomac Tea earlier and it was just as in the Expobar tips section...they said they sell a basket that works for the pods on E61 machines.
Mike...You have me thinking I should pull the trigger fast. I think WLL is closed on Thanksgiving...but perhaps I can catch them the day after? As for the Andreja Premium...how does it compare. Of course I will try to do my own research but your opinion is of course taken seriously
Is there anything anyone wishes to tell me about the Isomacs that may be inferior to the Expobars? Somthing I should note as it relates to my newbie wife?
It looks like the Isomac Tea is especially beautiful...but I would consider the Relax as well.
Perhaps it was meant to be? When my wife opens this gift...I want it to be awesome and I want her experience with brewing and making the milk drinks as easy as possible. I also want the clean up to be easy. I think the back flushing accomplishes this. I don't even know if back flushing was a feature of the Expobars?
Jewldee Senior Member Joined: 29 Dec 2001 Posts: 40 Location: Indiana Expertise: I love coffee
Posted Wed Nov 24, 2004, 9:03pm Subject: Re: Please "DE-FRUSTRATE" me
Hi Kevin! I just thought I would chime in with my thoughts again. There is a person on the "Buy and Sell" forum selling a Livia 90 for (I think) $600.00. If I hadn't just bought a Silvia as a weekend machine I sure would have gone for the Livia. My main machine is a Livia 90 SA. Since 11/01. I LOVE it. It is just a great machine. Limited only by the operator's abilities. The Silvia is a very respectable machine, but, not in league with an HX. Having said that, I often have fantasies of upgrading to an E61. But, after all of the research, when it gets right down to it, you can make the espresso as well as "you" can - no matter the machine. Essentially, it boils down to your ability as the barista. Does this make sense? So, E61, HX, simple boiler...anyone will make the espresso that "you" really work for (OK, prolly not the steam machines, but then...) The Livia allows you to steam milk and pull shots at the same time. Can be left on all day (Not! 24/7). And it is Perty! Great Machine! If this sounds crazy and convoluted, I apologize. I have been baking wayyyyyyy tooo many pies tonight. And the "semi-adult" children have just gotten on the last little inch of my nerves! Seriously, check out the Pasquini Livia 90. It is a wonderful machine. And very aesthetic. Wishing safe and happy Thanksgiving to all! Julie Dee
Posted Wed Nov 24, 2004, 9:43pm Subject: Re: Please "DE-FRUSTRATE" me
The advantage of the HX machines is that you make multiple drinks in succession with ease, and you can brew and steam at the same time. They also have the advantage as they can be left on all day without the worry of the boiler running dry as they have a boiler autofill feature. If you are only making one drink at a time, a HX machine will not make drink making significantly easier, and may actually be overkill. An HX machine takes a good hour to warm up, while many of the dual purpose boiler machines can warm up much faster. If the machine has been idling for a while, ~6oz of water must be drawn through the group to bring the temp down to the proper range. After that, the temps should be in the proper range unless the machine is not used for several minutes. All of the HX machines will have a 3-way solenoid that allow for backflushing. In fact backflushing is a necessary process for a machine with an E61 group as the shower screen is not removable except for replacement.
andiron Said:
Mike...You have me thinking I should pull the trigger fast. I think WLL is closed on Thanksgiving...but perhaps I can catch them the day after? As for the Andreja Premium...how does it compare. Of course I will try to do my own research but your opinion is of course taken seriously
Is there anything anyone wishes to tell me about the Isomacs that may be inferior to the Expobars? Somthing I should note as it relates to my newbie wife?
It looks like the Isomac Tea is especially beautiful...but I would consider the Relax as well.
The Andreja Premium is a relatively new machine to the US market, but Quickmill has been around in Europe for a while. From inital reports, they seem to be of excellent quality and the build quality may be slightly better than the Isomacs. Chris provides excellent service, which is another asset to the machine. The Isomac machines are also excellent machines, and the build quailty similar to an Expobar. The Isomac Mondiale on Chris' site looks really interesting. It is priced the same as the Andreja and it has a rotary pump (more commercial quality than a vibe pump, but must be plumbed in) with a 2.5L boiler. However, he only has 6 available. Looks to be a good price, but may be over your limit.
Posted Wed Nov 24, 2004, 10:00pm Subject: Re: Please "DE-FRUSTRATE" me
andiron Said:
Is there anything anyone wishes to tell me about the Isomacs that may be inferior to the Expobars? Somthing I should note as it relates to my newbie wife?
It looks like the Isomac Tea is especially beautiful...but I would consider the Relax as well.
Sorry I haven't been around much (I'm out of town visiting relatives). There are a few threads around with very detailed comparisons of the Isomacs and Expobars. I think it boils down to preference. Now it seems Expobar may have priced themselves out of contention.
I love the idea Julie had about the Livia 90. The Isomac Tea and Relax are also semi-pro machines. The shot quality on any of these will only be limited by other factors (beans, grind and technique).
Any HX machine will be way beyond any imaginable minimum and your wife will be able to grow into it as she gets more interested. Any can apparently be used with an adapter for pods I guess (and they all take the same portafilter - actually Livia may be different but I can't remember).
All of the HX machines steam on demand and have 3-way solenoid valves for convenience. Any machine with a 3-way valve can be backflushed. All of these machines are beautiful and HUGE. Please make sure you check the dimensions against your available kitchen space. A cardboard mock-up can be helpful for getting a perspective on size. My girlfriend always comments on the size of my machine and grinder.
ALL of these machines sell extremely well on eBay so there is a built-in exchange and "return" policy.
Sorry - looks like I'm not much help in the end - am I?
I own a Relax and I'm not the only one happy with it. There are others who had bad experiences with certain Isomac machines including the Relax. There are some who have had overtemp issues with the Expobar and there are many satisfied Expobar owners. Again, I think it's all preference.
And if you're gonna use PODS then you're just getting a HX for the convenience of steaming. The bigger boilers are the best steamers so maybe that's a test to apply.
You mentioned the Andreja from Chris. He's an EXCELLENT vendor and that machine is likely head-and-shoulders above Tea, Relax and Livia 90. It costs more as well. It has a big insulated boiler and some other cool advantages for us geeky types (but it's also $1300 IIRC).
So pick your poison. What I can say is any of the machines you're now considering are gorgeous, massive, impressive, and all have superior ability to make espresso and milk-based drinks. Maintenance will be similar for any of them as well, so it's really down to which one you think may tickle the wife's fancy the most...
brugeswalker Senior Member Joined: 15 Jan 2003 Posts: 145 Location: Delaware Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Expobar Pulser Grinder: Cunill Tranquilo SS Drip: Only in the office :-( Roaster: Thinking about it
Posted Wed Nov 24, 2004, 10:00pm Subject: Re: Please "DE-FRUSTRATE" me
I think you need to consider some things you have said all along and not get hung up on the market moving against you with the Expobar.
First, think seriously about how much you NEED to spend to get good espresso - decent single boiler machines with built in burr grinders can be had new and warrantied for about $125 (Spidem Trevi Combi). Now, how much do you WANT to spend? And you WANT to spend that amount to what purpose? More expensive gifts reflect greater love? You are not even sure if your wife is going to catch espresso fever as strongly as you have caught buying fever.
Second, reconsider the amount of use you will get out of this machine. One or two espressos a day, even three or four a day, so long as there is not a requirement to serve them simultaneously, is within the reach of EVERY espresso machine. The better machines improve efficiency and consistency, to be sure. How much efficiency and consistency do you really need?
Third, consider how much convenience and automation makes sense to you and your wife. Some machines are perfect for people who like to tinker, others fit those who do not want to be spending all of their time making adjustments.
Fourth, pods. Yuck. OK, they are slightly more convenient. But as your tastes get more refined you will find them to be sadly lacking in what makes for excellent espresso. For the sake of argument, let's make pod capability a given. Hey, we need some certainty here!
If I told you you could get an espresso machine that has top quality components, built by a world class manufacturer, one that has been rated by Coffee Geek official reviewers as one of the best, if not THE best pod espresso makers, has a computer controlled thermistor for great temperature stability, a marine brass boiler, a huge three liter reservoir that is super easy to see and fill, has a choice of computer controlled or manual water volume, a high temp safety auto shutoff, and an electically heated cup warming surface, and a pressurized portafiler, how much would pay for it?
$1000? $800? $600? What color do you prefer?
Black and silver it will run you $459. But I will give you a hundred dollar price break if you take one in white - $359 takes it away.
Of course, I am referring to the Solis SL-90. It meets or exceeds all of your requirements on a functional level - it is powerful, easy to use, customizable, automated, well designed and it will do everything you want to have it do. The only choice is whether you pay $100 more for the black and silver color scheme.
Alternatively, if you want to have a more hands on experience, consider the Rancilio Silvia and the Gaggia Classic for around $400.
Combine any of one of these three machines with a decent grinder and a funky tamper and you have a setup that will hold up for years of excellent espresso.
If they are in as-new condition as the sellers indicate, I would also seriously consider that beautiful Livia on Buy/Sell, also the Tea and the Expobar, and not give a hoot that they have been broken in as they look awesome. It doesn't hurt to negotiate the best price for these items either.
Posted Wed Nov 24, 2004, 10:14pm Subject: Re: Please "DE-FRUSTRATE" me
my .02¢
1 - At $700+, a quality machine is not a small purchase. So be comfortable with the dealer.
IF you get an Isomac, get it from ChrisCoffee. Time after time, it seems that they've got the best machine service record here. People seem to give 1st-line stellar reviews for customer service as well (though I haven't read much on their machine service - but their post-sales support sounds great)
2 - Having a lower-end Isomac in my home, I'm not 100% behind them -- so i'm not considering them for myself ( I'm currently looking at 'wow' machines too). Based on reviews/service records, i'd suggest looking at QuickMill Andreja (was looking at ECM Giotto, this machine seems to trump it based on consumer reviews) Astra Pro I was looking at a few others.. i'll post a cross ref to one of my threads earlier. Both those machines are around 1300 though --2x the price of other machines.
Someone posted a brilliant manipulation of the illy home delivery program a few weeks ago -- they got a $1300 machine for $500 off and just sell all the coffee they're contracted to buy on ebay. You can look at that too!
The expobar was a steal, and a great opportunity. It was a low priced hx with an e61 clone, and kinda bridged the gap of the single boilers and the premium prosumer machines (until you get into the 2k machine realm)
That said, think of it this way: say you get a $700 machine -- what is the resale value should you want to bump up to a $1300 machine in a year or two. Is it worth cutting your losses and getting the better machine now? What about grinders?
If you're the same person who was looking at pods earlier, I'd suggest looking at one of the super fancy amazing looking pod machines that go for $350. This way there is less spending when you realize you should have bought a $1300 machine.
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