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Fine Tuning Brew Temperature on a Heat Exchanger Machine - A Workable Solution
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Discussions > Espresso > Machines > Fine Tuning Brew...  
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Abe_Carmeli
Senior Member
Abe_Carmeli
Joined: 16 Mar 2004
Posts: 284
Location: New York
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Expobar Brewtus modified...
Grinder: Versalab M3
Vac Pot: Bodum French Press
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Roaster: HotTop
Posted Sat Mar 5, 2005, 6:18pm
Subject: Re: Fine Tuning Brew Temperature on a Heat Exchanger Machine
 

singforsupper Said:

That is indeed a great chart.  On my Briccoletta, I have a direct connect to the water line and I have a drain hose on my drip pan.  Therefore, I just run about 10-11 oz. of water through the group head if it's been setting for a while.  Would that make sense?   If there's no need to be concerned about the volume of water used nor the water level of the drip pan, then is the chart still applicable?

Posted March 5, 2005 link

The chart is applicable regardless of your water source.  Your water source may only affect the rebound time (recovery time) if the water temperature in your pipe is lower than 80f.  Allow a few more seconds in such case for recovery. 11 oz is too much.  8-8.5 oz will empty the H/X on most prosumer machines, so you would not want to go over that.  Your temperature will drop below brew temperature and you will need a much longer recovery time if you do.  If you cannot measure your brew temperature, follow the chart as is, and add a few seconds to your recovery time.  Setting your boiler pressure to 1.1 bars would also help.

Abe
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EricC
Senior Member
EricC
Joined: 2 Feb 2004
Posts: 271
Location: Liverpool
Expertise: Just starting

Espresso: KvdW Speedster
Grinder: Versalab M3
Roaster: Quest M3
Posted Thu May 19, 2005, 6:53am
Subject: Re: Fine Tuning Brew Temperature on a Heat Exchanger Machine
 

Hi BobY,

boby Said:

This may be useful for Andreja owners...

I'll probably make a time chart for the Andreja, in case I want to go above 203 or below 201 deg F for brewing temps.

BobY

Posted December 4, 2004 link

Did you ever complete this chart?

If you did, please can you E-mail me a copy?

Cheers
Eric.
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boby
Senior Member
boby
Joined: 1 Apr 2004
Posts: 100
Location: Northern Vermont
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Andreja Premium
Grinder: Mazzer Mini
Vac Pot: Harios, Conas
Drip: Melitta
Roaster: Hottop, PID'd Sirocco, ++...
Posted Thu May 19, 2005, 7:08pm
Subject: Re: Fine Tuning Brew Temperature on a Heat Exchanger Machine
 

EricC Said:

Hi BobY,
Did you ever complete this chart?
If you did, please can you E-mail me a copy?
Cheers
Eric.

Posted May 19, 2005 link

Hi Eric,
I guess I'll tell you more than you asked! In the end, I really didn't need a chart. I guess I just played around with this so much that I can now come within a degree or two of my desired brew temperature without using a chart. The most important flush is that first one. If you have a way to measure the temperature of the water coming out of the group, and you learn how long an initial flush you need to get to a desired target temperature (by deciding what temp gives you the best cup quality), and then you stop the flush there, all the rest will quite easily fall into place. On my Andreja, I cut the initial flush off at around 200 deg F, down from 212 deg F. Initially, it takes a bunch of measuring and some time but after you go through it you'll be able to hit the target brew temp dead on and after that, you won't need to measure temps again. All you'll need to do is a 2-ounce flush, wait 30 seconds and pull the shot. That's it! Timing the flush will be enough. 2 oz takes 8 sec on my machine. It sounds harder than it is.

Just by coincidence, yesterday, I was curious, after months of pulling shots intuitvely, how consistent my brew temps were. So I pulled out my PF with an embedded TC, data-logged a bunch of shots and posted the results on another coffee forum. I found out that I can still pull shots to within the same temperature tolerances by getting the flush timing just right. I don't measure the water amounts; just the flush time.

Here is a chart showing part of what I did yesterday and really, what I do every day. The temps are the Y axis and the time in one-minute intervals is the X axis. Although this graph doesn't show the very first 25-second flush, these are the flushes after that. The first peak in each group is a 2-ounce flush. The second is a 2-oz shot pull. Note the relatively consistent temps of all the shot pulls even though the time between flushes changes (by design). The temps don't vary by more than a degree or two. This is a very stable and consistent process.

BobY

boby: Andreja 5_18_05.jpg
(Click for larger image)

 
BobY
www.coffeecuppers.com
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jakethecoffeelover
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jakethecoffeelover
Joined: 3 Mar 2005
Posts: 1,036
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Expertise: Pro Barista

Espresso: Gaggia Espresso
Grinder: Mazzer Super Jolly...
Vac Pot: Perhaps in the future...
Drip: Insulated Bodum Kenya FP
Roaster: Hearthware iRoast
Posted Thu May 19, 2005, 7:46pm
Subject: Re: Fine Tuning Brew Temperature on a Heat Exchanger Machine
 

Remember that many people advise people to start the shot at high temperature so as to neutralize the sour notes as the shot comes out, especially with pre-infusion. While I'm here, I figure I'll give a little and get a little. I have a question. When you pull a normal doppio shot, that means that 2oz of water goes through the heat exchanger in 25 seconds. For the sake of getting an answer, let's assume that this is always true. Now, when you pull a ristretto, only 1oz of water goes through the HX in 25 seconds. Therefore, the water ends up sitting in that tube surrounded by 125C water for longer. That means that the brewing temperature will be higher. Is this a major problem with HX machines? Is there a way around it either than what I plan to do when I modify my machine and temperature probe the steam boiler for control?

 
I got a blog! http://www.coffeaarabica.blogspot.com
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strugs
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strugs
Joined: 21 Jul 2003
Posts: 658
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Vincent Wega (Wega Lyra)
Grinder: Jules (Mazzer Mini)
Vac Pot: Hario TCA-5
Drip: Tray
Roaster: 49th and/or Intelly
Posted Thu May 19, 2005, 11:50pm
Subject: Re: Fine Tuning Brew Temperature on a Heat Exchanger Machine
 

Jake - most HX machince have an pressure valve that limits the water pressure going to the grouphead.  Excess pressure (and therefore excess water flow) is rerouted to a seperate line which in most cases flows into the drip tray.  FOr your example of pulling a rsitretto, the same amount of water will purge form the HX coil, but some will go to the grouphead, and the remainder will go to the tray.  Make sense?

 
- Sean
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jakethecoffeelover
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jakethecoffeelover
Joined: 3 Mar 2005
Posts: 1,036
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Expertise: Pro Barista

Espresso: Gaggia Espresso
Grinder: Mazzer Super Jolly...
Vac Pot: Perhaps in the future...
Drip: Insulated Bodum Kenya FP
Roaster: Hearthware iRoast
Posted Fri May 20, 2005, 12:25am
Subject: Re: Fine Tuning Brew Temperature on a Heat Exchanger Machine
 

Nice that makes perfect sense. Thanks. You really know how to explain these things! It's the only thing left I definitely need to know in order to make my mods! I won't have time until provincial exams are over though... end of June!

 
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EricC
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EricC
Joined: 2 Feb 2004
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Location: Liverpool
Expertise: Just starting

Espresso: KvdW Speedster
Grinder: Versalab M3
Roaster: Quest M3
Posted Fri May 20, 2005, 2:14am
Subject: Re: Fine Tuning Brew Temperature on a Heat Exchanger Machine
 

Thanks for the Graph and extra info BobY.

I see that i will have to get the thermocouple and digital thermometer out and do some measuring on my machine.

With the information you have given I have a similar machines data to compare my machine against.

Cheers
Eric.
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boby
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boby
Joined: 1 Apr 2004
Posts: 100
Location: Northern Vermont
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Andreja Premium
Grinder: Mazzer Mini
Vac Pot: Harios, Conas
Drip: Melitta
Roaster: Hottop, PID'd Sirocco, ++...
Posted Fri May 20, 2005, 2:40am
Subject: Re: Fine Tuning Brew Temperature on a Heat Exchanger Machine
 

EricC Said:

Thanks for the Graph and extra info BobY.

I see that i will have to get the thermocouple and digital thermometer out and do some measuring on my machine.

With the information you have given I have a similar machines data to compare my machine against.

Cheers
Eric.

Posted May 20, 2005 link

Glad to help. And, not to beat a dead horse, once you settle on an approximate routine, it will all become second nature. That chart was just a spontaneous sanity check that I did out of curiosity after months of not measuring anything, not time, or volume, or anything. I count the seconds in my head if I have to, and judge the volume by how much it fills a cup. One additional thing that helps... The initial 6-oz flush just fills a cappa cup to the brim and preheats it as well! So I use that little trick when my first drink of the day is a cappa, which it often is.

Let us know how you make out.

BobY

 
BobY
www.coffeecuppers.com
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andys
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andys
Joined: 10 May 2003
Posts: 857
Location: NY
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Espresso: Speedster, Londinium 1
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Posted Fri May 20, 2005, 2:47am
Subject: Re: Fine Tuning Brew Temperature on a Heat Exchanger Machine
 

boby Said:

Here is a chart showing part of what I did yesterday and really, what I do every day....Note the relatively consistent temps of all the shot pulls even though the time between flushes changes (by design). The temps don't vary by more than a degree or two. This is a very stable and consistent process.

Posted May 19, 2005 link


Hi Bob!

Do you have graphs that focus on the actual shot pulls? With perhaps, a one or two second interval on the X axis?

I understand the point you're making, but that graph just indicates that the temp are fairly consistent. There isn't enough detailed information to make the earth-shaking conclusions that we strive to make on Coffeegeek.  :-)

 
-AndyS
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EricC
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EricC
Joined: 2 Feb 2004
Posts: 271
Location: Liverpool
Expertise: Just starting

Espresso: KvdW Speedster
Grinder: Versalab M3
Roaster: Quest M3
Posted Fri May 20, 2005, 3:56am
Subject: Re: Fine Tuning Brew Temperature on a Heat Exchanger Machine
 

boby Said:

Glad to help.

Let us know how you make out.

BobY

Posted May 20, 2005 link

Will do and thanks once again.

Cheers
Eric.
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