Worldman Senior Member Joined: 16 Nov 2004 Posts: 1,730 Location: Pittsburgh, PA, USA Expertise: Professional
Espresso: Expobar Office Control Grinder: Cimbali 6/S
Posted Tue Dec 7, 2004, 8:35am Subject: One Geek's gripes about Starbucks
I really appreciate true Italian espresso/cappuccino from the way it is prepared to the way it is consumed (in a matter of seconds). I feel that Starbucks and their ilk, while having engendered an appreciation for espresso based drinks in the USA, have added an entire layer of superfluity and nonsense to the process. Now, many others have surpassed them in the nonsense and there seems to be no end in sight!
Firstly, Starbucks burn their beans, not as badly as Seattle's Best (Worst), but too well-roasted, nonetheless. In Italy, the coffee beans are NEVER black or really even all that dark brown. Consequently, the espresso has a smoothness that belies what one can find here in the USA (with a few exceptions). I suppose that this is why so many yanks drinks milk/coffee drinks (cappuccino, lattes, etc.), i.e. the milk is needed to smooth out the burned taste of the coffee. In Italy, cappuccino is only drunk for the first (or second) coffee beverage of the morning, if at all.
Secondly, they have their "rules" and paraphernalia which seem to assure that the beverage is always mediocre, at best. These include things like the time (& timers) for pulling a shot, thermometers for steaming the milk, spoons (!!) for distributing the milk, etc. It is surprising that the result is not MORE consistent!
Thirdly, and this is perhaps the real heart of the issue, they have these chipper, young, perky babes making the coffee! Being an old fart (& extremely politically incorrect), while I appreciate that the young babe is nice eye candy, she can't hold a candle to the crotchety old barkeep in Italy who seemingly makes your beverage with complete indifference - but it is nearly always PERFECT! He seems to pay no attention (within limits) to the amount of coffee in the portafilter to the tamp thereof to the shot pull time to the temperature of the milk to the assembly of the whole. It is just that he has experience and tradition and, dare I say it: "moxi".
Posted Tue Dec 7, 2004, 8:50am Subject: Re: One Geek's gripes about Starbucks
Are you griping about Starbucks, or are you instead griping about American espresso cuisine? You have an obvious affinity for the Italian way about things. Dare I suggest that your perceptions of the Italian process color your perceptions of the drink? Given the same conditions and the same drink, pulled by the "young babe', I can almost guarantee you that you'd still find it somehow lacking. I've had espresso throughout Austria and Northern Italy, and while I agree with the romanticism of the "crotchety old barkeep" producing my drink, I'd still choose almost any CGer to pull a shot for me.
Worldman Senior Member Joined: 16 Nov 2004 Posts: 1,730 Location: Pittsburgh, PA, USA Expertise: Professional
Espresso: Expobar Office Control Grinder: Cimbali 6/S
Posted Tue Dec 7, 2004, 9:13am Subject: Re: One Geek's gripes about Starbucks
hmmmm...I am indeed griping about American espresso cuisine! All of this extra care is NOT resulting in a better tasting drink.
My son-in-law is quick to mention that the extra care is not unlike that which I lavish on my audio system. I say: "kerflooey"! The extra care spent on one's audio system does result in better sound...but this is a topic for another forum all together. The extra care taken when making a simple beverage might yield some results - but they have little to do with the taste of the final beverage (assuming that one has decent basic practices).
Isn't the goal of all this to have your coffee beverage taste the way the coffee smells. I opine that timed shots and metered tamps do little to further that end. (Plus, having drunk espresso since the 1970s, I must admit that I like the idea of something that can only be acquired with decades of practice.)
Posted Tue Dec 7, 2004, 9:40am Subject: Re: One Geek's gripes about Starbucks
I think you'll have a hard time finding anyone to agree with that, personally.
The problem starts with this: "All of this extra care is NOT resulting in a better drink." You do of course realize that it was Illy who so greatly furthered the quantitative understanding of espresso preparation?
Also, all of this "paraphernalia" merely reflects the experience of so many others in pursuit of a balanced, palatable espresso. Independent of any education on preparation techniques one might be inclined to pull a 6oz shot using 10 grams of coffee in a double basket over 45 seconds. These rules, etc. merely give someone a starting point, and you'll find that most don't rely on them as crutches after acquiring enough experience. Most would determine that the 6oz shot I described to be insipid, and so they might then start altering variables to acquire a palatable shot. It seems, to me, that you're treating these variables as something superfluous, yet it's absolutely certain that your favorite Italian baristas keep them in mind as well. We shouldn't confuse knowledge of these variables with the equipment sometimes used by many to keep them within their desired balance.
It still seems to me that you're appealing to some magical act of espresso preparation. If it were possible, I'd challenge you to do a *blind* taste test; juxtapose the product of your typical Italian barkeep with that of a Stumptown, Zoka, Vivace, Intelligentsia, or most CGer shots.
Posted Tue Dec 7, 2004, 9:55am Subject: Re: One Geek's gripes about Starbucks
I think I see Worldman's point - don't necessarily agree, but I think I see it.
Espresso made anywhere can be fabulous (as I think most of us manage to pull in our homes, at least on occasion). But espresso sipped at home, or in a strip mall, pulled by someone who is younger than us, or whatever else environmental variables matter, may present us with a less than fabulous experience.
True for just about anything. I've had wine at a dinner full of friends and family, good music, kids running around, that's been just amazing. Same vintage, same wine, over dinner alone, stuck on another business trip to some random city can be barely worth drinking. I think some of my best shots have been wasted on me trying to keep my eyes open at 5:30 AM, just going for the caffiene.
Processes and techniques can be objective, but taste is a pretty subjective, environmentally dependent thing.
There was a great little CG article about this a while back. The thing about Julie. All true.
So far, I think we're mostly in agreement, that environment at least plays a part in enjoyment.
The disagreement: Call me crazy, but I'll take an attractive skilled barista over a grumpy old Italian guy any day of the week.
Woody Senior Member Joined: 26 Jan 2004 Posts: 482 Location: Hood River, OR Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: La Spaziale Vivaldi I Grinder: Mazzer SJ Vac Pot: Hoover Drip: yuck Roaster: SC/GG
Posted Tue Dec 7, 2004, 10:20am Subject: Re: One Geek's gripes about Starbucks
I see where Worldman is coming from. My guess is you like things fairly traditional- I can relate to that. It's not only the pure enjoyment of espresso, but the history of the drink that also adds to it's appeal. I haven't been to Italy yet (top of my "places to go" list), but was in Spain a few years ago and enjoyed espresso. Our friends have commented on the quality of the espresso in the cafes in Italy. Espresso is like any other food in America- it has been subjected to "Americanization", as has mexican food, etc. You can find authentic, but sometimes not easy, and may not be as palatable as "Americanized" food. We have a new restaurant in town called Sol Luna with an espresso machine. I overheard a friend comment the other day that "they won't do much business because they hardly have any flavors of syrups". Well, they aren't interested in the customer that wants a "macadamia nut vanilla Baby Ruth" latte you find at the drive thru. Starbucks, however, wants to appeal to the masses, and those who like that taste, go for it and don't be embarrassed. I like the ambience I think Worldman is eluding to, along with the effort in preparing a drink. If I want a coffee made by just pushing a button, I'll go to a truck stop.
Jon
BTW- your post may be more appropriate for "General Discussion"
Posted Tue Dec 7, 2004, 10:35am Subject: Re: One Geek's gripes about Starbucks
I agree with the ambience too, but it's still fallacious to reason that such ambience affects what's in the cup. This is why blind tests are so necessary in taste tests. Worldman essentially argued that increased concern for the variables in American espresso cuisine resulted in a lesser cup, and it's clearly an appeal to the ambience of Italian preparation methods, and not the cup itself. It's also obvious that the variables are in the mind of the Italian barista as well, because otherwise it would result in an insipid cup. He might be more relaxed on his measurement, concern, etc., but it's still present.
Worldman Senior Member Joined: 16 Nov 2004 Posts: 1,730 Location: Pittsburgh, PA, USA Expertise: Professional
Espresso: Expobar Office Control Grinder: Cimbali 6/S
Posted Tue Dec 7, 2004, 11:25am Subject: Re: One Geek's gripes about Starbucks
Ah, now we are talking. You guys are (of course) right and wrong.
I realize that the grumoy old guy has the method down and this is my point. He learned it by doing it not by using silly tools. It is a part of him and can, one supposes, be done in his sleep. THAT IS THE POINT.
As far as the grumpy old guy vs. the cute babe, I am just kidding there - but it helps to make my point.
I have recently been to Seattle and was told to visit both Vivace & Zoka. (Zoka was really hard to find!) They were both OK, but only OK. At both, I started with a double restritto (to taste the pure coffee) and followed it with a short cappuccino. Vivace was, to me, better than Zoka.
Better still was a small coffee bar at the end of the same block as Zoka. I can't remember its name but it was Japanese sounding, had only 5 or 6 small tables and a very tiny area. They bought their beans from a local roaster (while Vivace & Zoka raost their own). The owner was not Japanese, but was able to speak fluent Japanese with a local customer. Here, there was no latte art (a silliness, if I ever heard of one) and no playing around. Yet the barista had it and made the cappucino perfectly. Bravo!
As far as a blind taste test, I am ready and willing and suspect that I will pass choosing grumpy old guy barista coffee to nubile young babe coffee.
Posted Tue Dec 7, 2004, 11:47am Subject: Re: One Geek's gripes about Starbucks
I don't see your point... at all, and you're still appealing more to the *person* than the actual product. Whether you use "silly tools", have someone train you, or spend hours and hours finding the exact same results as someone who used "silly tools" and/or training, the results are in the same direction. You can be certain that someone trained your Italian barista at some point in his life. I don't see any point aside from the suggestion that the Italian is superior for being Italian, living in Italy, and producing a shot with a capricious attention to detail. This isn't an argument; rather, just an expression of your bias.
I'd love to actually do the blind test, because I think it would be very telling. Since we can't do that, I will instead ask you: What is so much better about the *actual espresso* produced by your Italian barista? Please, let's drop the fallacious appeal to his being Italian, and instead please quantify what's so good about the espresso itself. What made the product of Zoka, Vivace, and others inferior?
Also, I thought I'd just preemptively apologies if I'm coming off at all abrasive. Just having a friendly discussion, and it's sometimes hard over a text-only medium.
Worldman Senior Member Joined: 16 Nov 2004 Posts: 1,730 Location: Pittsburgh, PA, USA Expertise: Professional
Espresso: Expobar Office Control Grinder: Cimbali 6/S
Posted Tue Dec 7, 2004, 1:37pm Subject: Re: One Geek's gripes about Starbucks
Descartes,
I had thought that your reply was too harsh, but your appology/explanation at the end lessened the effect.
Well, I think that the drink, the espresso, the beverage itself is what is important. The "nectar" made in Italy is usually much smoother and less bitter than that which is typically served here.
Where do you live? I am in Pittsburgh and travel quite a bit. Maybe that blind test can be arranged!
I find that all things food and beverage are better in Italy, especially Northern Italy being both fresh and simple, e.g. typical pomodoro (tomato) sause. Pomodoro sause has only 5 ingredients: plum tomatoes - olive oil - fresh garlic - fresh basil - and salt. There isn't even pepper! Yet, it is great: simple and flavorfull. The Italians usually think the best espresso is in Naples (which is south) saying that the coffee quality is 1/3 bean + 1/3 machine + 1/3 water used. Naples is an extremely dirty city (air and water polution). They don't even consider the barista since they are all good. The coffee is good there!
OK, so we all only use 2 or 3 ingredients in the coffee - but the Italians have the simplicity thing down. This may surprise you if you have never been to Italy.
Len
PS: By the way, I am not Italian (though I am kind of a "euro-weenie").
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