brugeswalker Senior Member Joined: 15 Jan 2003 Posts: 145 Location: Delaware Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Expobar Pulser Grinder: Cunill Tranquilo SS Drip: Only in the office :-( Roaster: Thinking about it
Posted Wed Dec 22, 2004, 12:36pm Subject: Re: One Geek's gripes about Starbucks
I am a great fan of cafe culture and have been in my fair share of coffee houses and bars throughout Europe, Asia, the Caribbean and South America. As Dave says, there isn't a lot of consistency to be found and I think a lot has to do with the varying skills of the baristas that are manning the machines as well as the dreck that is supplied by most large scale commercial roasters. The owners are out to make a buck and one way is to keep the cost of supplies low. Couple that with baristas with varying levels of sensitivity to what is required for a good pull and you take your chances with what you may get. And you can forget about most office cafeterias and their automatic espresso machines - they are just one step up from what you get in their US counterparts.
Having said that, there are certainly regional characteristics that are as often good as bad. And it is the differences that make it all so much fun.
A French cafe may or may not have better coffee than a non-Starbucks American cafe, but it has the usual Gauloise Bleu smoking, Pernod pouring owner that knows how to keep his habitues happy. And, let's face it, the atmosphere is, well, more atmospheric than one will find in any sterile American cafe.
You don't see too many espresso babes, unless you are in what is primarily a bar as opposed to a coffee dispensary. In Japan, you might find the daytime clientele almost completely female, wives out for their four hour daily lunches, but most places around the world really seem to cater to men.
However, all is not lost as Hooters is now expanding worldwide, including China, and while I would never presume to go there for coffee, I know that I can get a decent plate of pommes frites and wings to keep my tongue from hanging out in an unseemly fashion.
If I were traveling for the espresso purpose of meeting an "interesting" companion, I probably would plan on sleeping in till noon and then start checking out the places that start serving around 10PM as opposed to 6AM. And if I happened to be in Europe, I would plan on spending my time in Italy and Denmark as opposed to Portugal and England. But, hey, that's just me!
barkus Senior Member Joined: 12 Nov 2004 Posts: 13 Location: austin, texas Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: estro vapore (old) Grinder: maestro plus Drip: krups
Posted Fri Dec 24, 2004, 7:51am Subject: Re: One Geek's gripes about Starbucks
Yes, this might well be better located at General Discussion, but since this section seems to generate more activity, what the heck. Anyway, I'd like to steer it back to machines. I have been drinking espresso for years, along with a lot of drip to start the day. I entered this site as my coffee interests got a little deeper. Ya see, I am first and foremost a foodie. I like the "non-formulaic" approach to food, sort of like the Old Fart's approach to espresso and Italia. I read all about the science for things like making bread, but I like to make it without measuring anything. I like to grow my own herbs, make my own vinegar, mayo, etc. So, that gives you a little insight into the kind of person I am. BTW, I spent a lot of time in Italy and think of my soul as Italian, even though I am totally not Italian!
I have an OLD Estro Vapore and a Solis Maestro Plus. I got the plus after tip-toeing into this forum to see if the grinder would really upgrade my espresso. The answer was a resounding YES! (I like the Vienna roast from Texas Coffee Traders...not too dark and really rich and smooth). So, having taken my espressos up many notches (from Starbucks clones to something totally different), where do I go from here? Do I set my sights on another grinder upgrade (Mini or a MACAP) or do I address "the machine" next?
I like the charm and hands on of a Pavoni or an Elektra lever machine, but I keep reading about people talking about technique with respect to their Isomacs, Andrejas, etc. Would geeks reading this offer their thoughts as to what sort of a machine would really resonate with a user like me, who happens to LOVE good coffee in all of its forms, feels cheated whenever he drinks bad coffee, and wants the experience to be as good as the coffee?
BTW, first post and did not know if it should go under this item or as a new question, but I figured anyone reading under this heading would relate to the way I am posing the question.
Posted Fri Dec 24, 2004, 10:08pm Subject: Re: One Geek's gripes about Starbucks
Welcome to the Dark Side, Barkus! It's good to see another foodie here. Yes, the grinder is the more important part of the espresso equation. That said, what is your preference in drinks, and how many of which kinds do you want to make in a session? I don't do milk drinks, so my equipment reflects that. If I did X lattes per session, my gear would be different. I started out being really anal about espresso (can you say weighing to a tenth of a grain?), but now I'm happy with my technique and equipment. You can definitely over analyze the wonderful world of coffee. The bottom line is: are you happy with the results? That's what counts.
"Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most." A. Brilliant
barkus Senior Member Joined: 12 Nov 2004 Posts: 13 Location: austin, texas Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: estro vapore (old) Grinder: maestro plus Drip: krups
Posted Sat Dec 25, 2004, 7:27am Subject: Re: One Geek's gripes about Starbucks
Thanks for the welcoming words. For better or for worse, I am the sort of person who would never measure anything to the gram, but somehow I develop a feel for what works and then make it repeatable yet susceptible to ongoing improvement. My family and friends all go for the milk drinks (caps and cafe lattes (any Italian knows that a latte is just a class of milk without coffee!)). I love espresso as well as the milk drinks. So, the machine is at work daily, but coudl be even busier if the espresso were good enough to start the day. Also, even though we have a Russell Hobbes for tea (yes, some of us drink tea...dark, green, and Chai...on occasion), I note that some machines have a hot water on demand feature (drawing off of the boiler, I guess), and that sounds neat. Personally, though, the big driver for me is better espresso, just like the baking process is not about baking bread, it is about baking better bread. A second driver is what the guy that started this post was talking about, the atmosphere. At $3 a pop, I am not going to be hanging out a lot at local coffee houses; so my kitchen needs to feel like a cafe in Napoli! An Elektra would definitely help that, but heck, so would any cool machine that had some industrial panache.
Mickael_esp Senior Member Joined: 20 Nov 2004 Posts: 29 Location: Portland OR Expertise: Professional
Espresso: LaMarzocco FB70 2grp Grinder: Mazzer Super Jolly Timer Vac Pot: what?? Drip: Aroma Roaster: So many good ones! Cafe'...
Posted Sat Dec 25, 2004, 7:46am Subject: Re: One Geek's gripes about Starbucks
AS an old school employee (ex-employee also) I will say that a lot of things have changed. I had to take three days of classes before I was allowed to touch the machine. Now training is done in store and isnt near as good. Especially in the stores that have the auto machines. What can be done though? It is all homogenized. I used to have a customer.. as soon as I saw him in line I got his "for hear doppio" ready. If the line didn't move fast enough I took his drink around the counter and gave it to him (O' my god before he payed even) so he could have fresh shots. His name was Frabitzio and he told me about in Italy he would down his doppio before paying and give thanks to the baritsa for nice shots. Those days just wont happen here in America I'm afraid. It is homogenized and fast food that keeps the shareholders wealthy. There are still good coffee shops like there are in Italy. They arent hard to find here in the NW, especially here in Portland. Good luck.
Worldman Senior Member Joined: 16 Nov 2004 Posts: 1,615 Location: Pittsburgh, PA, USA Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: Expobar Office Control Grinder: Cunill Tranquilo - Gaggia...
Posted Sun Dec 26, 2004, 10:35pm Subject: Re: One Geek's gripes about Starbucks
Brug,
I did not reference any coffee bars in France or Austria or Asia or South America or anywhere other than USA & Italy. I too have been to coffee bars throughout the World. To expand the discussion to these places is irrellavant since they are mostly not of the same calibre as that in Italy or even the USA (for the most part).
The best coffee in the World can be had at:
my house, and
Italy - almost anywhere
a very few select other locations. ...in that order.
Posted Mon Dec 27, 2004, 7:00am Subject: Re: One Geek's gripes about Starbucks
Worldman Said:
... they have their "rules" and paraphernalia which seem to assure that the beverage is always mediocre, at best. These include things like the time (& timers) for pulling a shot, thermometers for steaming the milk, spoons (!!) for distributing the milk, etc. It is surprising that the result is not MORE consistent! ...
Redwine Senior Member Joined: 4 May 2004 Posts: 186 Location: Manchester Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: Spazio 2-Group & Pavoni Pro Grinder: Mini Mazzer E & Pavoni JD Vac Pot: Cona D & Bodum Santos E Drip: Sacrilege!! Roaster: Hottop Roaster
Posted Mon Dec 27, 2004, 9:07am Subject: Re: One Geek's gripes about Starbucks
just my two penneth worth ...
you'll get consistently bad coffee across most countries but I'm personally not surprised in the least that the 2 best experiences I've had with coffee outside my own kitchen were in Italy and Spain. Both countries have a very special view of food in terms of freshness, knowing it's origins etc.
I've drunk coffee all over Madrid - and it was never less than acceptable and often gorgeous In Italy - I've drunk in every cafe I could find time to visit in both Udine and Trieste in the North and again - the general standard was much higher than anywhere I've ever been in the UK, US, Canada etc. etc.
the difference to me is closely related to their resistance to doing food/drink on a huge scale as in the UK and US. In the UK our obsession is cheapness and in my experience of the US the obsession is size of the portions - in both cases the quality inevitably suffers.
2 instances stand out in my experience as indicative of a completely different approach to life and food/coffee.
In Trieste I was feeling a bit under the weather and asked for the Italian equivalent of what we call a latte - the manageress refused in no uncertain terms - they did a particular type of coffee excellently, if you wanted something else - go somewhere else. Zero for customer service with a whiney visitor but top marks for having standards and sticking to them!
In Udine - I was in a butchers and asked did they know which region the salami came from - the girl behind the counter told me which farm!!
You get traces of this type of behaviour in extremely small areas of UK/US society but not like you do on average in Italy where in the towns you only buy a relatively small proportion of your fresh food in supermarkets ...
and sorry to put the cat amongst the pigeons but I really believe in these types of discussions that people get understandably defensive over their own country's way of doing things. But *trying* to be objective over something in which taste is by definition subjective and determined by what you're used to, there's no getting away from the fact that there are simply some things some countries do better than others ...
in Britain we deepfry everything to within an inch of its life - an ex Italian girlfriend felt like crying everytime she saw British food being prepared - there's no excuse we're awful. But we still have (when you can find it amongst the mass-produced crap) the best beers in the world and the biggest range. It's difficult to even talk about this on a US-centric site because all the ignorant cliches about "warm beer" come out ...
In the US/Canada there are similar strengths and weaknesses too. Find me a better lobster than in Maine or Nova Scotia and I'd be a happy man but - abysmally insipid lager (that's freezed so you can't taste it [just as well]) dominates and it's difficult to find actual 'beer' (there is a difference). Your bread has ridiculous amounts of sugar in it and your chocolate is truly hideous.
The US and UK both beat the pants off most countries in lots of other ways (so don't start getting all patriotic on me) but in terms of food & coffee and being able to spend more than 15 minutes on a meal in convivial company - they are both way down the league ...
so back to the original point and in support of Worldman - Italy for coffee/food every single time - let's not try and kid ourselves - Ciao!!!
I just got back from Italy (Florence) and no truer words have ever been written! Fantastic culinary experience, both the food and the atmosphere to enjoy it in.
Worldman Senior Member Joined: 16 Nov 2004 Posts: 1,615 Location: Pittsburgh, PA, USA Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: Expobar Office Control Grinder: Cunill Tranquilo - Gaggia...
Posted Mon Dec 27, 2004, 2:09pm Subject: Re: One Geek's gripes about Starbucks
Redwine,
I have also been many times to Madrid, Bilbao and La Coruna plus once to Barcellona. I did not find the same coffee experience as you - in Spain. In Italy, the North wins hands down for all things food with the possible exception of coffee (Napoli and Potenza win here) and ice cream (Roma, baby!!!).
I am curious why you were in Udine. It is the HQ for some big steel mill equipment firms (Danieli, VAI Pomini CC Group, SIMAC, etc.) and has great industry. Are you in the steel industry? (I am.)
The Udineans are crazy about their Udine and never want to leave. While it is good, it is NOT as good as the Udineans think. The food in Udine is CRAZY good!
Symbols: = New Posts since your last visit = No New Posts since last visit = Newest post
Forum Rules: No profanity, illegal acts or personal attacks will be tolerated in these discussion boards. No commercial posting of any nature will be tolerated; only private sales by private individuals, in the "Buy and Sell" forum. No cross posting allowed - do not post your topic to more than one forum, nor repost a topic to the same forum. Who Can Read The Forum? Anyone can read posts in these discussion boards. Who Can Post New Topics? Any registered CoffeeGeek member can post new topics. Who Can Post Replies? Any registered CoffeeGeek member can post replies. Can Photos be posted? Anyone can post photos in their new topics or replies. Who can change or delete posts? Any CoffeeGeek member can edit their own posts. Only moderators can delete posts. Probationary Period: If you are a new signup for CoffeeGeek, you cannot promote, endorse, criticise or otherwise post an unsolicited endorsement for any company, product or service in your first five postings.
= No New Posts since last visit 