Posted Thu Jan 6, 2005, 1:14pm Subject: How many beans in the hopper / How much grind in the doser?
I've read posts about medium- and long-term bean, both green and roasted, storage strategies, but my question is closer to the, um . . end-user. I've ordered a Silvia/Rocky combo and am wondering about how many beans I should keep in the hopper, and how much I should grind into the doser? Previously, I used a $50 Pavoni burr grinder (along with a $200 Gaggia Max) and ground one hopper of beans at a time keeping the grind in an airtight, but not vacuum, glass container in a dark nook. With the huge upgrade in my gear I'd like to employ best practices to have as much flavor and crema as possible in every shot.
Should I keep minimal beans in the hopper and only add more from vacuum storage in the refridgerator - or a cool, dark closet - as needed and only grind an amount close to what I expect to use that day - or the next two to three days.
Too much knowledge, too many variables, too many decisions. My head is beginning to hurt . . .
Posted Thu Jan 6, 2005, 1:33pm Subject: Re: How many beans in the hopper / How much grind in the doser?
I only load what I will use.
So to start, I load and grind for one shot to check my grind and tamp for that blend, that day. Then I load what I will use for THAT SESSION only, and grind it into the doser. Then of course I use a brush to distribute the grounds inside the doser and clear the chute (area between the burrs and doser where coffee collects).
At the end of a session the doser is empty (or very close to empty). Any remaining coffee gets tossed. Only make espresso from coffee that was ground within a few minutes.
Posted Thu Jan 6, 2005, 1:45pm Subject: Re: How many beans in the hopper / How much grind in the doser?
JonR10 Said:
I only load what I will use.
So to start, I load and grind for one shot to check my grind and tamp for that blend, that day. Then I load what I will use for THAT SESSION only, and grind it into the doser. Then of course I use a brush to distribute the grounds inside the doser and clear the chute (area between the burrs and doser where coffee collects).
At the end of a session the doser is empty (or very close to empty). Any remaining coffee gets tossed. Only make espresso from coffee that was ground within a few minutes.
Thanks, JonR10. Vacuum seems to be universally agreed upon as the best for all storage, but do you have an opinion on short term storage in the refridgerator vs cool, dark space?
I keep beans in the cupboard above my espresso equipment.
The best way to ensure freshness is to use the beans before they are more than a week old (for espresso). Anything over a week old goes to the office to become drip coffee, anything over 2 weeks old gets tossed.
Many of the posters I read thought vacuum aided in retaining freshness. If air - oxygen, maybe - is the enemy, it only stands to reason that less of it is better. Your recommendation to use inert gas would seem to be driven by that premise. Using vacuum has got to be more practical than an inert gas storage system. You squeeze as much air as possible out of your zipper lock bags before sealing them, don't you?
JonR10 Said:
The best way to ensure freshness is to use the beans before they are more than a week old (for espresso). Anything over a week old goes to the office to become drip coffee, anything over 2 weeks old gets tossed.
Bingo! Right now I'm buying onlne from Peet's and have an automatic monthly shipment of one lb. I think what I'll do is divide that into 1/4 lb lots and vacuum bag them pulling out what I need only as I need it. I'll do the cool, dark & dry thing instead of refridgerating to avoid condensation on the beans when exposed to warmer and more humid air.
Really? That's not the impression I have after reading a few posts on this subject. Vacuum sealing seems best if done immediately after roasting and immediately before storing in a freezer. Apparently freezing prevents degassing. The attached image is stolen from a Bob Roseman post (thanks Bob!), and here are some good reads on the subject of aging and bean storage:
If air - oxygen, maybe - is the enemy, it only stands to reason that less of it is better. Your recommendation to use inert gas would seem to be driven by that premise. Using vacuum has got to be more practical than an inert gas storage system. You squeeze as much air as possible out of your zipper lock bags before sealing them, don't you?
Less air (oxygen) is better, but that does NOT mean that vacuum is better. Beans release CO2 after roasting for a couple of days and vacuum accelerates that process so that the beans actually age quicker. I do squeeze the air out of my bags, but there's never a vacuum. My bags have a degassing valve on them (look close). Also, pressurization with inert gas would (in theory) slow the aging/degassing process because it's harder to release gas when the pressure is higher whereas vacuum would assist in the release of gas.
pepar Said:
Bingo! Right now I'm buying onlne from Peet's and have an automatic monthly shipment of one lb.
Just curious - does Peet's provide the roasted-on date? Maybe you would consider exploring some of the smaller roasters who sell online. For the same money you can get extremely fresh dated beans, it's some of the best coffee available anywhere.
Posted Thu Jan 6, 2005, 5:54pm Subject: Re: How many beans in the hopper / How much grind in the doser?
First, thank you for the links and things to consider!
JonR10 Said:
Really? That's not the impression I have after reading a few posts on this subject. Vacuum sealing seems best if done immediately after roasting and immediately before storing in a freezer. Apparently freezing prevents degassing.
Less air (oxygen) is better, but that does NOT mean that vacuum is better. Beans release CO2 after roasting for a couple of days and vacuum accelerates that process so that the beans actually age quicker. I do squeeze the air out of my bags, but there's never a vacuum. My bags have a degassing valve on them (look close). Also, pressurization with inert gas would (in theory) slow the aging/degassing process because it's harder to release gas when the pressure is higher whereas vacuum would assist in the release of gas.
After re-reading the links you provided - I read them earlier - with an open mind, I have come away thinking that I don't know exactly what to think. Seemingly knowledgeable, well-spoken and passionate individuals all had logic and research(!) on their side, but were on both sides. What amazes me is that after a 1000 (or two?) years of coffee drinking there is no consensus on vacuum vs. no vacuum, and freezing vs. merely cool. Dry and dark do seem to be a constant though. Human nature seems to be to hang one's hat on those facts that support one's opinion.
JonR10 Said:
Just curious - does Peet's provide the roasted-on date? Maybe you would consider exploring some of the smaller roasters who sell online. For the same money you can get extremely fresh dated beans, it's some of the best coffee available anywhere.
Pete's is usually roasted 3-4 days before I receive it. This whole issue made me google for local roasters which led me to this company. I think I'll go hang out and see if I can learn something. Fresh does seem to be the answer to everything though. And I've already googled "home roasting" . . .
I gotta admit, I have waffled over this too. AFAIC the only "sure thing" is just to use the beans before they can get old.
pepar Said:
Pete's is usually roasted 3-4 days before I receive it. This whole issue made me google for local roasters which led me to this company. I think I'll go hang out and see if I can learn something. Fresh does seem to be the answer to everything though. And I've already googled "home roasting" . . .
WOW!! I didn't know Peet's was that fresh delivered. For some reason I had the idea that they were a Charbux-type operation (but I have never tried them).
Local roasters and home roasting are great options too. You might check out www.coffeeemergency.com . They are not too far for fast shipping and the Code Brown is excellent espresso and the Ethiopian Harar is awesome as drip or press.
Thanks for engaging in this conversation with me and for being so nice about putting up with my attitude at the start. :-)) It's always a pleasure to learn something new and to converse with sensible and intelligent folks like you.
WOW!! I didn't know Peet's was that fresh delivered. For some reason I had the idea that they were a Charbux-type operation (but I have never tried them).
Maybe they have coffee shops a la Charbux, but I've never seen any. (I've never looked.) Their beans are sold in grocery and specialty food stores which I discovered that after a friend bought me a six month "subscription" last year for Xmas. I never picked up a bag at a store to check the date, but I can't imagine it being less than a week old.
JonR10 Said:
Local roasters and home roasting are great options too. You might check out www.coffeeemergency.com . They are not too far for fast shipping and the Code Brown is excellent espresso and the Ethiopian Harar is awesome as drip or press.
Thanks, I'll check them out. "Code Brown" sounds ominously impressive.
JonR10 Said:
Thanks for engaging in this conversation with me and for being so nice about putting up with my attitude at the start. :-)) It's always a pleasure to learn something new and to converse with sensible and intelligent folks like you.
Everman Senior Member Joined: 25 Nov 2004 Posts: 1,005 Location: Coffee Land Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Valentina Levetta Grinder: Mazzer Mini Roaster: Hottop
Posted Thu Jan 6, 2005, 7:12pm Subject: Re: How many beans in the hopper / How much grind in the doser?
I just store beans in glass jars, such as those in JonR10's pic above. I know they seal well because I always hear gas escaping when I open them (I usually wait 3 days before using, roasted myself). They're gone in 7 days or less so no need for vacum seal.
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