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What is Italian espresso like?

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Discussions > Espresso > Q and A > What is Italian...

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GaryH
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Posted Thu Jan 13, 2005, 5:23pm Subject: What is Italian espresso like?

I've never been to Italy but I'm curious about the quality of a typical Italian espresso. For this discussion don't consider top Italian places like Tazza d'Ore or obviously poor places in Italy like Venice or other tourist areas. These are various opinions that I've read and heard: The price of espressos in Italy is regulated by the government so in Italy they use single baskets, and no doubles, and Italians use cheaper generic quality beans, not high quality beans used by Vivace, Zoka, Stumptown etc. The espressos in Italy are so different from espressos at Vivace, Vita, Zoka, Lighthouse that they can't be compared. A double in Italy is 2oz, no double 1oz ristrettos like at Vivace, Zoka, etc. A typical Italian espresso is the same quality as top coffee houses in Seattle like Vivace, Zoka, Hines, Vita, Lighthouse. Anybody here has been to both top Seattle coffee houses and Italy and care to comment? Anybody has a good picture of a typical Italian espresso?

hawker
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Posted Thu Jan 13, 2005, 8:28pm Subject: Re: What is Italian espresso like?

I dissagree with most of the opinions you have heard or read. I had a great cafe in Venice and several other tourist areas this summer. You just have to know how to recognize a good cafe shop. Actually Venice is in the heart of cafe country. Most of the Italian machines and grinders are made in that area and the major coffee roasters are in Trieste which is near. I doubt but don't know if there is gov. requlation beyond vat tax. If you ask for a cafe you will get a single because this is what the Italians want. All menus I recall offer a double. But one would rather drink 6 singles than 3 doubles or anyway that's how I feel and I learned to drink cafe in Italy. Shot size averages 1.75 - 2 oz. With about .25 oz being crema. I haven't seen ristretto on a menu but I have been served ristretto. The last time was in the Bar Academia, San Polo,Venice. My impression based on nothing but my impression is that few places make ristretto and that it is a kind of compliment for an Americano who has mastered the art of enjoying a 3 hour meal or for special requlars who like it. I don't think every Italian likes ristretto. Bear in mind Italians invented espresso and still define it. Theirs is much better than the above average found in the USA. Because they drink it. I mean the cafe owners and people who make it as well as everybody else. Here the average cafe dosen't know how poor their's is because they don't drink it. very few customers or cafe employees drink espresso everyone wants cappuccino or latte. Notice how few espresso cups are on the cup warmer. Generally Italians only drunk cappuccino at breakfast. A big difference is the roast. The Italian roast is much lighter. They don't like the black oily roast so common here. The oily roast is fine for mixing with a lot of milk but a little much for straight drinking. In general the further south you go, in Italy, the darker the roast. Illy medium is a good example of the northern roast and is typical of what is drunk in Venice down through Florence. In Naples, as I understand it, I haven't been there, the roast is quite black but not oily. Lastly I'll close before I really get a wind up by saying low, medium and high end beans are available there. Anyway I'm no expert just a student of cafe and the above is my biased opinion. I drank 5 singles today which is about average.

CoupePlus
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Posted Thu Jan 13, 2005, 9:56pm Subject: Re: What is Italian espresso like?

Gary, I pretty much agree with Hawker. My one trip to Italy found .75 ounce for a single in the south, about 1-1.25 in Rome, and 1.5-1.75 in the north--your mileage may vary. The busy bars pull from a double basket into two single servings. If one gets lucky, They pay a little more attention. And, when that little Mom and Pop store pulls you a single--Wow! I have not been to (that part of) the Left coast so don't know how your number 2 compares. I have had their beans, and some are better (with my limited experience) and some are not as good. I first drank an espresso in 1969, but did not get involved in this experience until after I went to Italy. That may suggest something. Larry

GaryH
Senior Member

Posted Thu Jan 13, 2005, 9:57pm
Subject: Re: What is Italian espresso like?

hawker Said:

Theirs is much better than the above average found in the USA.

Posted January 13, 2005 link

That's a given, but how do typical Italian espressos compare to those from Stumptown, Vivace, Zoka, Hines, etc.?

I was told by someone who has been to Italy and who has had good double ristrettos in the USA that the average Italian espresso is worse than the double ristrettos available in top coffee houses like Vivace, Zoka and Hines because in Italy the beans are lower quality and in general don't pull 1oz double ristrettos.

I have some friends who are not coffeegeeks but went in 2004 on a month long vacation to Italy, Rome to Venice, and they had Italian espressos and they told me, gasp, shock, that Italian espressos tasted similar to a double espresso from Starbucks in the USA. Now these folks never had a quality double ristretto in the USA so their expectations are different and their untrained taste buds might not be able to tell the difference. Interesting observation though. These same folks also had latte art cappas in Italy.

GaryH
Senior Member

Posted Thu Jan 13, 2005, 10:23pm
Subject: Re: What is Italian espresso like?

CoupePlus Said:

The busy bars pull from a double basket into two single servings. If one gets lucky, They pay a little more attention. And, when that little Mom and Pop store pulls you a single--Wow!

Posted January 13, 2005 link

So they are all still singles, no double ristrettos.

In November 2004 I met two people at a barista competition and they had been to Italy and even visited the LaMarzocco factory. They told me that a typical Italian espresso tastes like a good double espresso from the Torrefazione coffee house chain in the USA. To me that means that Italian espressos are not good because the best espresso from Torrefazione is bad compared to the best of Barefoot, Stumptown, Vivace, Zoka, Hines, Vita etc. (Note: these folks were taking about the 2004 Torrefazione).

Luca
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Posted Fri Jan 14, 2005, 8:15pm Subject: Re: What is Italian espresso like?

I might just hijack this thread for a little bit: I'm off to Rome, Venice and Florence in a few weeks and was wondering what the 'must see' espresso places in those cities are. I've been in touch with La Marzocco (very friendly bunch of people) and they have sent mea pdf that lists the cafes in Florence using their machines ;P Post if you'd like a copy (I'm hesitant to post other people's IP without their permission). As for the espresso itself, one thing that I've heard is that italians use a lot more robusta than the rest of the world. We shall see. Cheers, Luca

General ramblings about coffee: http://www.pourquality.blogspot.com/ Reviews of Australian coffee: http://www.coffeereviewaustralia.com/

Cowpoke
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Posted Fri Jan 14, 2005, 11:36pm
Subject: Re: What is Italian espresso like?

GaryH Said:

Anybody here has been to both top Seattle coffee houses and Italy and care to comment?

Posted January 13, 2005 link

I am no professional barista; but I like to remind myself that, while it does take a certain amount of attention to detail, skill, etc., to create palatable espresso drinks, it also is NOT exactly rocket surgery.

I just re-located my coffee-related business (I sell a lead list of 10,000 Gourmet Coffee Retailer Prospects) after 12 years residence in Seattle.

My home in Seattle was in Capitol Hill, located (literally) across the street from Schomer's Espresso Vivace. I used to frequent the place, sometimes on a daily basis.

If I understand the definition of the term correctly, the macchiato that Schomer and his staff prepares is not a 'true' macchiato in the sense that he uses roughly the same parts steamed milk to that of espresso shot. He does add a dollop of foam to finish the drink.

If I'm not mistaken, a true macchiato- as will be prepared for you in Italy- uses no steamed milk; rather it is a shot (or two) of espresso with a dollop or 'mark' of frothed milk on top.

Don't get me wrong; Schomer's 'macchiato' is terrific. I think it's the drink HE prepares best.

Conversely, I was never very impressed with the skills (or attitude) of many of the barista who are employed by him- but that's Capitol Hill for you (yuk!) and the topic of another conversation.

BTW...

I enjoyed a driving tour some years back starting in Rome and finishing a couple of weeks later in Venice.

Driving the autostrada is a lot like driving the autobahn. Need to get out of the way of Ferraris and other speedy vehicles barreling up your backside

Stopped along the way in Firenze (Florence), Sienna, Orvieto, Genoa, Turin, and Verona before attending a coffee trade show in Venezia.

It was a terrific opportunity to both tour the Italian countryside and sample espresso-based drinks. I recommend it for anyone who can find the time...

3 specific suggestions come to find while you are in Italia:
i) Caffe Greco: One of the most famous coffeehouses in italy (and the world) ; located near the spanish steps in Roma. Worth it just to soak up the ambience.

ii) Espresso Machine Manufacturing Plant: I took a tour of the Rossi plant just outside of Milan; this is where they design and assemble 'Brasilia' brand machines

ii)Illy Caffe in Trieste: I didn't make the time to take a tour of their facilities, but next time I am in Italy I plan to ingratiate myself with the powers-that-be and pay a visit

- Neal

Please do share with us some of your impressions after your return!

hawker
Senior Member

Joined: 18 Dec 2004
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Location: MI
Expertise: I love coffee

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Posted Sat Jan 15, 2005, 7:06pm Subject: Re: What is Italian espresso like?

As for the opinions against italian cafe there is no accounting for taste but there is accounting for source. I greatly respect everyone's taste and feel strongly that in the privacy of one's home one ought to enjoy what one likes to enjoy. But when in Rome! The challange is to travel with an open mind enjoying how things are done in a foreign land. On July 4, 2004 I was in Piazale San Marco, Venice chaperone for the high school Wind Symphony. When one of these 65 musicians turned to me in earnest frustration and asked "Ok, so why are we here?". Americans and especially us midwesterners go a long way between cafes. In Italy cafes are literally on most corners. We tend to go feeling the need for great planning and list making, not necessary when the goal is cafe. Just take a walk. You'll soon learn how to pick em. I was in Salzburg this summer staying in a small hotel in a residential suburb. At 7:00 AM I took a walk in an area where I didn't expect any stores. Within 5 blocks I'd discovered a wonderful bakery. I stood at a tiny table enjoying wonderful coffee while construction workers came in to buy a roll and a beer to go. Chaperones don't get much opportunity to do this on tour. My chance in Italy was the afore mentioned Bar Acadamia in Venice.

GaryH
Senior Member

Posted Sat Jan 15, 2005, 7:24pm
Subject: Re: What is Italian espresso like?

Cowpoke Said:

Schomer's Espresso Vivace. I used to frequent the place, sometimes on a daily basis.

Conversely, I was never very impressed with the skills (or attitude) of many of the barista who are employed by him- but that's Capitol Hill for you (yuk!) and the topic of another conversation.

It was a terrific opportunity to both tour the Italian countryside and sample espresso-based drinks.

Posted January 14, 2005 link

So how do Vivace ristrettos compare with typical Italian espressos?

I've visited Vivace five times over the past four years and Schomer's robot baristas are arrogant, snobbish, and have the "I make the world's best ristretto and I don't have to share any info with you lowlife" attitude. That said Dolce is still my favorite bean to make ristrettos at home.

GaryH
Senior Member

Posted Sat Jan 15, 2005, 7:30pm
Subject: Re: What is Italian espresso like?

hawker Said:

But when in Rome! The challange is to travel with an open mind enjoying how things are done in a foreign land.

Posted January 15, 2005 link

I've read that espressos in Italy are good because.......Well, you're in Italy, that's why. So you liked the espresso but was it any good compared to what? What is your benchmark?

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