PaddyInCR Senior Member Joined: 28 Apr 2003 Posts: 86 Location: Cedar Rapids, IA Expertise: Beginner
Espresso: Isomac Tea Grinder: Mazzer Mini Roaster: Poppery II
Posted Sat May 3, 2003, 12:38pm Subject: Need help frothing milk
I'm having trouble perfecting the art of frothing milk. I'm hoping some successful frothers out there might help me figure out what is wrong.
In addition to my Solis SL-70 I'm using a 20 oz "ideal" frothing pitcher (pictured here), and a thermometer. So I have the right equipment. I'm also bleeding off all water prior to frothing to ensure that I have only dry steam.
I've read several articles on frothing, including David Schomer's and Mark Prince's (link above with pitcher). Both articles were very helpful, but I still am missing something.
I start with 8 oz. of cold organic 2% milk poured into a freezer-chilled pitcher. I stretch to 100 deg and then I bury the wand to the side in order to achieve a clockwise vortex until 155. Turning the steam off before pulling out the wand. I then bang the bottom of the pitcher on the counter a few times to settle any odd bubbles, and then swirl the milk in the pitcher a few times before pouring into my mug containing 2 shots of espresso.
The problem is that I tend to get a lot of foam. It is thick, fairly stiff-peaked, "chiffony" foam, and quite creamy, but it tends to sit atop milk that seems to be just "hot milk" and not the "weighty creamy milk" that I think it should be. So, it's not "sea foam" (I don't think), but more like "too much foam" that is not integrated well enough into the milk underneath. I can see bubbles that are around 1/32", and some perhaps 1/16". Nothing larger unless I try to fold the foam into the warm milk.
I think I might be doing something wrong in the stretching phase. The articles aren't consistent in how they describe what it should sound like (perhaps because it's pretty difficult to describe). I'll try to explain what I hear. I put the wand approx. 1/2" below the surface of the milk and turn on full steam. It sounds like a squeal, almost like a small jet engine. Not sure if that is OK. If I raise it a bit, which I have been doing lately, I get a raspy sucking/slurping sound. It's not a "hiss" like David Schomer wrote about. And I'm not splattering milk around, making lots of large bubbles, etc. It's a difficult to control suck/slurp. As I'm doing this the milk definitely grows in size, but I can see a fair amount of 1/8" or large bubbles on the surface. Not too many; maybe about 1/3 of the top. I don't know if that's unavoidable or not. Sometimes the froth gets so thick by 100 deg that when I plunge the want I can't even tell if there's a vortex going on underneath.
As for trying latte art with this, I don't see how. I'm basically making a "Starbucks Grande Latte" (end result fills a 20 oz mug). By the time the milk is poured in there is almost no crema visible on top. Much of the white foam pours on at the end (I don't have to scoop it out) fairly nicely, but there's no brown background on which to do art (even if I could do it!).
So that's the issues as best as I can describe them. I would love to hear from anyone who might have some insights, esp. those SL-70 owners who have achieved foam nirvana. If not, I'm headed to Seattle in late May to see how it's done at Espresso Vivace. Maybe if I catch them at a non-busy time, they'll show me the ropes. If so, I'll share whatever wisdom I gleaned.
gauperaa Senior Member Joined: 22 Dec 2001 Posts: 326 Location: Oslo, Norway Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: Euro2000 Junior, Rancilio... Grinder: Mazzer Mini, Rancilio Rocky,... Vac Pot: Mini eSantos Drip: OBH Nordica King of Coffee Roaster: Imex-CR100, Princess popper,...
Posted Sat May 3, 2003, 1:28pm Subject: Re: Need help frothing milk
Sounds like you are very close to your goal. What you could try is place the tip a bit lower. You still want to hear the slurping sound you describe, but we are talking millimetres here. If you are a bit too high, then lowering just a little bit can make a difference.
You could also try placing the wand close to the wall of the pitcher and angling it so that you're making the milk spiral throughout the process, both when stretching and just spiraling/rolling with the tip buried a bit lower.
Yet another piece of advice - you will get more spiraling/rolling action if you place the tip closer to the surface compared to burying it way down at the bottom.
I hope some of these things help. To save milk you can experiment with cold water btw. A cheap way to experiment with how the liquid moves when the pitcher and wand is placed at different angles and positions.
Posted Sat May 3, 2003, 2:04pm Subject: Re: Need help frothing milk
I agree with Thomas, you sound like have it basically down. I'll add that the food coloring suggestion in the In Depth Look at Frothing Milk article was very helpful to see quite clearly when it's right and when it's not.
I don't have an SL70, but I'll admit that I required about 4-6 weeks of practice to produce consistent results. Most of that time was learning to read the signs correctly and compensate appropriately. For example, when steaming 9oz in a 20oz pitcher, I found that Silvia's steam output varied noticeably and it dramatically affects the result. Now I recognize that and know to stop, wait, bleed off a little "weak steam", then continue. After enough practice, I know the result will be disappointing otherwise.
All this fussing would be unnecessary on a commercial machine. I'm still learning myself. I found just this week from a fellow CoffeeGeek that switching to a 12oz pitcher and 4oz of milk was far easier and I didn't have to wait for "perfect steam" (OTOH, using perfect steam on a 12oz pitcher risks painting the walls). The final result is only slightly compromised, but it cut well over a minute off my preparation time. It bugged me that my espresso sat cooling while I was waiting for Silvia to come up to steam temperature. For 4oz of milk, one minute is enough.
You're probably right that a short afternoon practicing with an expert would be more than enough to get it down pat. It took me a lot longer because I was guessing a lot.
Final hints: Don't try to produce so much volume. If you end up with a white fluffy cap, I suspect that it's too much stretching. If you go only for a little (say 25% volume increase), it's a lot easier to get a nice brown halo. I'm far from latte artist, but my initial feeble attempts suggest that pouring faster / more volume will give a better contrast. If I pour very gingerly, I get a almost pure white cap, independent of the quality of the frothing. I start by pouring almost pure liquid at first, then the last 1/3 I'll pour faster to get a little "turbulence" that seems necessary to get a good contrast.
Updated: I've attached a spontaneous shot of this morning's cappuccino. Nothing special, far from latte art. I was only trying for a pleasing contrast. It is a little sunken because I didn't think to take a picture until I had already poured and had to scramble to find my camera. You can see that a few big bubbles snuck in there. I'm still practicing with a straight 12oz pitcher and 4oz of milk.
jim_schulman Senior Member Joined: 19 Dec 2001 Posts: 3,772 Location: Chicago Expertise: I live coffee
Posted Sat May 3, 2003, 2:37pm Subject: Re: Need help frothing milk
With the SL70, angle the tip so that the milk spins in a whirlpool (this'll take a little practice, but is easy once you find the right spot -- usually close to the side of the pitcher).
Also, as the others suggested, lower your tip a tiny bit. Instead of a loud tearing/sucking noise, you should hear a softer hissing.
Posted Sat May 3, 2003, 7:06pm Subject: Re: Need help frothing milk
Even a few more suggestions...
One weekend I worked timer in hand through a dozen or so blank shot pulls of 2.5oz, hit steam button, wait n seconds, check steam pressure, wait n more seconds, check again, and so on. As described in the SL70 review under Steaming Performance, the SL70 has a microswitch that forces the heating coils on when the steam knob is opened. Silvia lacks that, so you have to pay closer attention to timing to avoid a "dead spot" in steam pressure.
It may well not apply to your machine, but in my case this was a good exercise. I first checked how long it took to cycle off, i.e., reach steam temperature and shutdown the heating coil. That time changed depending on how much I "temperature surfed" for the shot and I considered it the outer limit of where I would find "perfect steam". I then checked steam pressure at 20s, 1m, 1:30m, and so on. Finally, I checked the effect of short bleeding (3s blast), hard bleeding (10s+ blast) early on, hard bleeding mid-way, and so on. All in all, an hour or so of measuring.
Once I had these guidelines, I applied them to something closer to real world usage. I started with 9oz of water, using my "blow it up the sides" scale in a 20oz pitcher. Anything less than one inch is wimpy steam. A good sustained 1-1/2" roil is the ideal. We're not talking Apollo 11 liftoff thrust -- Silvia just can't do that -- but it should provoke a "whoa!" reaction.
This little exercise was the turning point in my quest for consistently good microfoam. Prior to that, I was near the point of declaring "Miss Silvia is a Steam Wimp(ette)!" Too many others were claiming success to give up, and I'm glad I took a more methodic approach. After a few days with a timer and my notes, I had enough intuitive feel for it that I no longer bother. I still screw up from time-to-time, but now I know why (always just a few moments too late). ;-)
Final comment about Silvia versus the SL70. The steaming difference claimed in the WLL Compare-o-Matic was one of my deciding factors in choosing Silvia. Now having read the SL70 Detailed Review, I wonder if WLL has overstated the difference to the SL70's detriment (see attached table). Oh well, at the time I was deciding, I unfortunately hadn't heard of CoffeeGeek, instead relying exclusively on retailer information. C'est la vie.
Beto Senior Member Joined: 18 Nov 2002 Posts: 111 Location: Maryland Expertise: Pro Roaster
Espresso: Linea 2AV Grinder: Major Drip: Chemex Roaster: Ambex YM15
Posted Sun May 4, 2003, 11:00am Subject: Re: Need help frothing milk
When you initially stretch whole milk, you shouldn't have more than 3 or 4 "slurps" where air is getting sucked into the milk. If you are using 2%, I wouldn't let it slurp more than twice.
PaddyInCR Senior Member Joined: 28 Apr 2003 Posts: 86 Location: Cedar Rapids, IA Expertise: Beginner
Espresso: Isomac Tea Grinder: Mazzer Mini Roaster: Poppery II
Posted Sun May 4, 2003, 11:50am Subject: Re: Need help frothing milk
I tell ya, this is one of the best forums I've ever participated in. You guys rock! Great info! I was reviewing Dan's superb posts, especially, and noted that he lists himself as a Beginner. Shyeah, right. Well, I changed mine from Intermediate to Beginner. If he's a Beginner, I'm just learning to spell "expresso" ; ). Your cappucino looked great, by the way. I hope I can get to that point.
Anyway, lots of great tips here to hone my skills. This is exactly what I was looking for. I'll glean the details and then keep practicing. I'm still headed to my old stomping grounds in Seattle in late May, so I'll stop by Espresso Vivace (several times, tee hee) and also probably Uptown Espresso. I wonder what others I should try out there. (When I lived there four years ago I wasn't much of an espresso drinker. Starbucks got most of my $.) Anyway, I'll report back when I've practiced some more and possibly have some tips I could share from E.V. I'll probably also have another question or two.
gauperaa Senior Member Joined: 22 Dec 2001 Posts: 326 Location: Oslo, Norway Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: Euro2000 Junior, Rancilio... Grinder: Mazzer Mini, Rancilio Rocky,... Vac Pot: Mini eSantos Drip: OBH Nordica King of Coffee Roaster: Imex-CR100, Princess popper,...
Posted Sun May 4, 2003, 12:00pm Subject: Re: Need help frothing milk
Regarding Seattle, the espresso places there have been discussed a lot here in the forums as well as in the newsgroup alt.coffee. Try searching groups.google.com for "good espresso in seattle" or something like that and I think you'll get lots of hits :)
I think I also recall reading that Owen (http://espressotravelguide.com) is planning an espresso trek in Seattle. Maybe you could e-mail him and get a list of places to check out.
PaddyInCR Senior Member Joined: 28 Apr 2003 Posts: 86 Location: Cedar Rapids, IA Expertise: Beginner
Espresso: Isomac Tea Grinder: Mazzer Mini Roaster: Poppery II
Posted Sun May 4, 2003, 12:48pm Subject: Re: Need help frothing milk
Thomas,
Thanks for the link to EspressoTravelGuide.com. Looks like their Northwest Trip Report is currently down, but I did find this article on frothing, which made some interesting points I had either forgotten or not yet read in other articles:
Stretching should only be to 15-20% of volume, although if you do the math on David Schomer's article, he advocates approx. 32%. In any case, much less than my approx 50% <blush>. As Dan said, I think I'm stretching way too much and didn't realize it. This has to be mainly due to the wand being too high. You and Beto both said I should lower it, so that's going to be one of the things I focus on.
Wand placement really varies by machine. Before starting this thread I was under the impression that it was always "centered wand for stretch, offset and buried wand for vortex." But this does not appear to be the case. Perhaps it is for a La Marzocco, but the article mentions that the Isomac yields best results with the wand always centered. I'll try various combinations, including "offset stretch, offset vortex" as you suggested.
I hadn't thought of experimenting with a different steam tip. Has anyone used a modified tip with the SL-70? I remember seeing one advertised for $4.95 on one of the main espresso machine sites, but now I can't find it (and it was only offered to people who purchase the SL-70 from them.)
Posted Sun May 4, 2003, 3:51pm Subject: Re: Need help frothing milk
PaddyInCR Said:
I'm still headed to my old stomping grounds in Seattle in late May, so I'll stop by Espresso Vivace (several times, tee hee) and also probably Uptown Espresso. I wonder what others I should try out there. Patrick
Vivace, Zoka, Hines Public Market, Bahaus, Cafe Appassionato, B&O Espresso and Uptown are all worth a visit. Vivace and Zoka would be my first two stops. My office building is just down the hill from Vivace, so I go there most often.
Having said that, although I do get the occasional God shot from a vendor, I am still happiest and get the most consistent results from my own setup. Don't be surprised if you find your own drinks to be better. Since we don't labor under the restrictions of a commercial environment, we can take the time and care to consistently produce superior results; at least after we get the necessary practice!
Welcome back from Cedar Rapids; I once gave a lecture at the medical school there.
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