neilwest Senior Member Joined: 21 Aug 2005 Posts: 2 Location: Virginia Beach, Virginia Expertise: I love coffee
Grinder: Solis Maestro Vac Pot: Bodum Santos Drip: Bodum Colombia
Posted Mon Oct 17, 2005, 11:49am Subject: why is Starbucks so unpopular with coffee lovers
I am not a big fan of Starbucks. Their coffee is fine. This said, there is a palpable dislike of Starbucks amongst coffee lovers. Please someone let me know why? I am aware that they are kind of the Target of the coffee world.
Reighlok Senior Member Joined: 2 Sep 2005 Posts: 676 Location: North Dallas, Texas Expertise: I love coffee
Posted Mon Oct 17, 2005, 12:20pm Subject: Re: why is Starbucks so unpopular with coffee lovers
I think it has to do with the common belief that starbucks is the pinnacle of great coffee, and in truth they are okay espresso, not-so-okay coffee... This idea that starbucks IS good gets into the consumer's mind, so they want the mediocre, and because thats what the consumer wants all the other coffee shops start imitating it. In my neighborhood starbucks is the ONLY coffee shop around. There used to be more, but they all went out of business. The only place I know to get good espresso is in my own apartment. I think they are driving the quality of coffee and espresso down. For more on this you should read Mark Prince's opinion piece in the opinion part of coffeegeek titled "So what the heck is wrong...".
PS: In the begining they did drive the quality of coffee and espresso up, but they have since reversed that trend. What is happening to starbucks is sort of like what happend to how people feel about microsoft.
Jasonian Senior Member Joined: 8 Aug 2005 Posts: 3,832 Location: Lubbock, TX Expertise: Professional
Posted Mon Oct 17, 2005, 12:51pm Subject: Re: why is Starbucks so unpopular with coffee lovers
Reighlok Said:
I think it has to do with the common belief that starbucks is the pinnacle of great coffee, and in truth they are okay espresso, not-so-okay coffee... This idea that starbucks IS good gets into the consumer's mind, so they want the mediocre, and because thats what the consumer wants all the other coffee shops start imitating it. In my neighborhood starbucks is the ONLY coffee shop around. There used to be more, but they all went out of business. The only place I know to get good espresso is in my own apartment. I think they are driving the quality of coffee and espresso down. For more on this you should read Mark Prince's opinion piece in the opinion part of coffeegeek titled "So what the heck is wrong...".
PS: In the begining they did drive the quality of coffee and espresso up, but they have since reversed that trend. What is happening to starbucks is sort of like what happend to how people feel about microsoft.
A personal thing I really REALLY dislike about them: My old district manager (when I worked at a *$) went through the courses and training to earn the black apron.. which makes him a "Starbucks certified Coffee Master". The sad thing was that within less than 2 months of working there and reading these boards from time to time, I ended up educating HIM every time we got together. And he was the supposed "Coffee Master"! The lack of REAL knowledge in that company is ridiculous. The sad part is that the whole Starbucks mentality/system almost encourages AWAY from individual research. That puts a REALLY big hamper on the progression of quality, imo.
For a cup of coffee or a coffee flavored smoothy, it's okay.. but it's most definitely not the "high quality coffee shop" their projected image appears to their customers.
dankbean Senior Member Joined: 8 Jun 2005 Posts: 886 Location: Raleigh, NC Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: mine Roaster: self
Posted Mon Oct 17, 2005, 1:04pm Subject: Re: why is Starbucks so unpopular with coffee lovers
well, there are things i like about starbucks, and things that i don't.
PROS OF THE MERMAID:
they have definitely contributed to the increased awareness of specialty coffee, and they are working at doing that around the world
they have, in my opinion, half-decent drinks. granted, most of them have little to do with coffee and more to do with milk and caramel sauce and whipped cream. but they do taste okay.
availability: i am never without coffee, because in a clinch in a foreign town, i can pull to the side of any road and ask a random person where the nearest starbucks is, and they can usually tell me.
CONS:
because of their awesome marketing, most people think that they are the best coffee in town. at the same time, they seem to be concentrating more on quantity and consistency than actual quality. that's pretty sad.
the part that gets me mad is that people are actually REQUESTING starbucks-like beans from specialty coffeeshops and suppliers. i realize that *$ is not the best coffee, and so does *$. when a client calls up and says, "i need a coffee that tastes like starbucks, because that's what my customers ask for", it makes my job of promoting the best coffee.....well.....hard. not that i don't enjoy a good challenge, but my roaster refuses to overroast the beans.
the idea of superautomatics.......irks me.
they seem to be more concerned with making the most money, rather than providing the best product. employee education is not at the top of their list. ask one of them what fair trade actually means, and you'll get the idea. don't sell a product that you don't understand, please.
that's about it. i'm sure some of the coffeeshop owners dislike them more than me, for the same reason that a privately-owned grocer doesn't like wal-mart. search the forums for starbucks conversations, and i'm sure you'll find some heated responses from other people.
me, i say thank you for the industry awareness, thank you for the marketing ideas. but i wouldn't order a shot. and from what i hear lately, i don't even have that option anymore. oh well, in a pinch, there's always the Illy station at the Cheesecake Factory..... then again, i DO have the keys to my building, so there's really no excuse to ever pay for espresso or coffee ever again. i enjoy the priviledge of not having to be a paying consumer.
Confirmed....almost. There is a *$ kiosk my local grocery store and I was desparate. Espresso does not exist on the menu (closest is an americano) and asking for a double macciato(geez, I'm a coffeegeek, I hope I spelled that right) will result in a pail-sized cup with mountains of whipped cream unless you notice you are being charged around $4.50 at which point, you say no, a double shot of espresso with a dab of steamed milk please. Blank stares lead into a consultation of the cheat-sheet and then, as it is handed over from the superauto, a question of "are you sure that's right?"
And it's still better than most of the espresso in this town.
malachi Senior Member Joined: 5 May 2002 Posts: 1,758 Location: SFCA Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Monster Mia (for now)_ Grinder: Monster Cimballi Junior Vac Pot: Not any more Drip: never Roaster: Ecco, Stumptown, Intelli,...
Posted Mon Oct 17, 2005, 2:26pm Subject: Re: why is Starbucks so unpopular with coffee lovers
Reighlok Said:
I think it has to do with the common belief that starbucks is the pinnacle of great coffee, and in truth they are okay espresso, not-so-okay coffee... .
Well stated, though if you talk to coffee pros it would be more like "Starbucks has educated consumers that they represent the pinnacle of great coffee when in fact their coffee is swill and their espresso is excerable."
javaseeker Senior Member Joined: 26 Sep 2005 Posts: 138 Location: Chicagoland Expertise: Just starting
Espresso: Barista Grinder: Anfim Milano Drip: Krups Moka Brew
Posted Mon Oct 17, 2005, 2:31pm Subject: Re: why is Starbucks so unpopular with coffee lovers
just from my point of view:
I find *$ burns their beans...and I mean that their coffee tastes incredibly burnt to me. The coffees at the office are *$ house blend and *$ decaf and "Metropolitan", IIRC. Even with the pre-measured packets, and the dang-near-fully-automatic drip machine, it tastes like... well, it tastes burnt.
And then, they have their displays which basically try to "educate" the customer to believe that "Burnt Beans Make Better Coffee", and that this uber-dark roast is necessary to "bring out the full flavor of the beans" or other equivalent drek.
I read something over at SweetMaria's recently... basically, that when you get into the really, really dark roasts, the "flavor" of the roast overcomes the flavor of the beans... and from SM's chart, *$ is at the point where the beans may well be into that "25% or more ash content" range. I think that would definitely overpower any off-tastes from lower-quality beans.
So, rather than "we use the uber-dark roast to get the best flavor from the beans", as *$ says, I think it's more of "we use an uber-dark roast to cover up the fact that our bean quality is low."
The fact that they want to call that "premium" coffee just irks me.
Jasonian Senior Member Joined: 8 Aug 2005 Posts: 3,832 Location: Lubbock, TX Expertise: Professional
Posted Mon Oct 17, 2005, 2:32pm Subject: Re: why is Starbucks so unpopular with coffee lovers
espressionist Said:
Confirmed....almost. There is a *$ kiosk my local grocery store and I was desparate. Espresso does not exist on the menu (closest is an americano) and asking for a double macciato(geez, I'm a coffeegeek, I hope I spelled that right) will result in a pail-sized cup with mountains of whipped cream unless you notice you are being charged around $4.50 at which point, you say no, a double shot of espresso with a dab of steamed milk please. Blank stares lead into a consultation of the cheat-sheet and then, as it is handed over from the superauto, a question of "are you sure that's right?"
And it's still better than most of the espresso in this town.
The macchiato actually IS in their recipe book (on top of th superauto). It's under a different name, though... known as "espresso macchiato" haha. Quite a stretch, isn't it?
I worked at a kiosk in a grocery store for a couple of months.. I had a guy come every day who ordered the same thing, but I always just charged him for the espresso.. I always gave him the milk.
And yes, you CAN get just espresso. Ask for a "doppio", and voila.. a double shot in a cup. Ask for a "solo" and voila.. a single shot in a cup.
If the grocery store is a Kroger owned company, these are definitely options.
Posted Mon Oct 17, 2005, 2:36pm Subject: Re: why is Starbucks so unpopular with coffee lovers
I found a *$ in n. Boca Raton, FL that still pulls shots (doubles, triples and quads) and even has those little paper cups for shots and macchiati. And when I ask for a breve, they automatically assume I mean heavy cream, not half-and-half (most indie shops don't even stock anything richer than half-and-half and for those that do I have to specify a "heavy whipping cream breve; and half the time they start pulling out the can of whipped cream). The manager there apologized to me for no longer being able to pull ristretti. (No setting for ristretto on the superautos--just singles and doubles). When I visit my mom, it's my only chance to go online without tying up her phone line, and its relatively decent drinks are a plus. Our local *$ concession in the Dominick's supermarket across the street still has grinders and a semi-auto LM. Every time I go grocery shopping, I glance over to it in trepidation, knowing it'll soon be replaced...
Sandy www.sandyandina.com ------------------- Life's too short to drink lousy coffee, play crummy guitars and write with ballpoint pens.
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