nickcho Senior Member Joined: 7 Nov 2002 Posts: 429 Location: Washington, DC Expertise: Pro Barista
Espresso: Synesso Cyncra; 'Zocco Linea Drip: FETCO Extractor
Posted Mon Oct 17, 2005, 7:34pm Subject: Re: why is Starbucks so unpopular with coffee lovers
Starbucks is under constant attack from all different sides: coffee snobs, indie-rockers, the Fair Trade brainwashed, etc. It's really pretty unfair. I think that it boils down to the fact that Americans don't really like to see people or companies who clearly succeed. You have to stay under the radar. If you make it too obvious to people see that you're ambitious, they're eager to tear ya down.
Anyway, I believe that the reason that coffee-snobs diss Starbucks is because, the truth is, what "good coffee" is isn't something that's widely agreed upon (yet). You don't hear steak fanatics bitch about Outback Steakhouse, nor do you hear Gucci-wearers complain about The Gap. But that's because it's silly to bitch about how bad McDonalds' burgers are... they're not pretending to be any good. They're just McDonalds, and they are what they are. The "good stuff" is clearly better, and nobody really disagrees.
With coffee, companies have been built on making sure that people don't really know too much about coffee. Someday, if those of us working in specialty coffee get our way, the best coffees will not only be recognized as such, but they'll be prized and priced accordingly. The "not too bad" coffees will be relatively uninspiring, but not particularly offensive either. The worst coffee out there will, maybe, just disappear from the landscape, relegated to seedy rest-stop vending machines and places like that.
Starbucks will, at some point in the future (I'm gonna throw out... 4 years from now), have to face a more educated consumer base, and decide whether they're gonna lead, follow, or get out of the way. The most logical thing for them to do, with the number of stores that they'll have, is grow the segment that they've been the most aggressive in: flavored espresso-based beverages and the like. We'll see them have more in common with Baskin-Robbins than Intelligentsia.
Please, don't hate Starbucks. It's silly to. You don't have to love them, but don't hate.
Barefoot Senior Member Joined: 6 Mar 2003 Posts: 385 Location: Santa Clara, CA Expertise: Professional
Posted Mon Oct 17, 2005, 11:54pm Subject: Re: why is Starbucks so unpopular with coffee lovers
I LOVE starbucks!!!!!!
they are awesome!!!
they are a fantastically aggressive killer whale/hyena type of company that absolutely destroys anyone who gets in their way. I LOVE them because they are finally getting out of Specialty Coffee and sticking with Fast Coffee.
there is Great Coffee and there is Fast Coffee... but you can't have both.
I have NO problems with Starbucks at all. Except that they keep taking good locations and turning them into fast food coffee spots. darn them! I wanted that spot!
parity Senior Member Joined: 26 Jan 2005 Posts: 295 Location: Mountain View, CA Expertise: Just starting
Espresso: Rancilio Silvia Grinder: Rancilio Rocky, La Pavoni... Roaster: CO/SC
Posted Tue Oct 18, 2005, 2:20am Subject: Re: why is Starbucks so unpopular with coffee lovers
nickcho Said:
Starbucks is under constant attack from all different sides: coffee snobs, indie-rockers, the Fair Trade brainwashed, etc. It's really pretty unfair. I think that it boils down to the fact that Americans don't really like to see people or companies who clearly succeed. You have to stay under the radar. If you make it too obvious to people see that you're ambitious, they're eager to tear ya down.
You make an interesting point because a while back I was listening to NPR. And there was a discussion about how bad Walmart is and someone pointed out that no one really pays attention to Target, where they probably do some of the same things Walmart gets criticised for. But because their #2 no one really cares.
and with that same mentality, Hyundais and Saturns will be stricken from the automotive market, and Ducati will lower its prices to reasonable levels. Yamaha will reign supreme....
nickcho Said:
Please, don't hate Starbucks. It's silly to. You don't have to love them, but don't hate.
Posted Tue Oct 18, 2005, 8:31am Subject: Re: why is Starbucks so unpopular with coffee lovers
I think the whole Starbucks issue is a complex one. On the one hand, they have helped create an awareness of espresso bar culture and gourmet coffee (vs. robusta laden diner coffee and Folgers etc.) that has benefitted the gourment coffee world. On the downside, they DO try to present themselves as the pinnacle of gourmet coffee rather than McDonald's and they DO actively predate local coffee shops so that they can be the only game in town. Very often they will open multiple locations near an existing coffee shop, knowing full well that they'll lose money with the goal of siphoning off enough business from the local shop so that everyone's losing money. They have the capital resources to outlast the local shop and drive them out of business and then they are the only game in town.
I do think that Starbucks does a decent job for what they are -- well maintained superautomatics make better coffee drinks than high end semi-automatics run by an untrained staff, since they are more "idiot proof." The problem is that most people know McDonald's isn't gourmet and I don't think the same can be said for gourmet coffee, since again, Starbucks has a lot to do with the spreading of Italian coffee bar culture to this country in the first place.
A while ago, I had an interesting discussion with Ken Nye over at 9th Street Espresso here in New York (one of the few real espresso guys here in the city) and he made an interesting point about how many of the indie cafes share in the responsibility, because they themselves have focused on the atomosphere but not the coffee. He's right. It's amazing how many beautiful cafes in Greenwich Village with gorgeous machines have no barista; your waiter or a busboy pulls an untamped shot from grinds that have been sitting in the doser for two hours (who knows how long the beans have been sitting around) and you get this stale, bitter, sludge. I've had many friends tell me that they don't like straight espresso because it's so bitter. I direct them to 9th Street and Avenue C, or pull a shot for them myself and they invariably say, "wow, I didn't know espresso was supposed to taste like this." Is it any wonder people think Starbucks is good then?
trb6 Senior Member Joined: 15 Mar 2005 Posts: 62 Location: san antonio, tx Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: Silvia Grinder: Macap M4 Vac Pot: Santos Drip: Krups (I only pull it out... Roaster: Fresh Roast
Posted Tue Oct 18, 2005, 9:04am Subject: Re: why is Starbucks so unpopular with coffee lovers
starbucks was the only decent coffee when it first came to town several years back....so i certainly respect the fact that it brought coffee awareness to texas....very few coffee shops in tx. had a clue prior to their arrival. it spurred me to getting a silvia and roasting my own beans, trips to the seattle, etc...
what has ticked me off about starbucks is the whole superautomatic takeover of their machines. its all about efficiency now and their "baristas" do little more than press a button. i get a cross-eyed look when i ask for a ristretto. imo their coffee has suffered because of it..but it makes no difference to the corporate guys when the public doesn't notice or care.
so its a mixed bag with starbucks...i appreciate the awareness they brought to my area (i mean what marketing!...rednecks drinking lattes? who woulda thunk it? :))...but it jerks me that the "pureness" of their coffee technique they were once founded on is sidelined by getting the customer their drink in 30 seconds or less.
i would say that means the people who think Fair Trade is a better tasting coffee. it isn't. it has nothing to do with the coffee flavor. it's all about that paper.
Posted Tue Oct 18, 2005, 10:30am Subject: Re: why is Starbucks so unpopular with coffee lovers
What did Target do to deserve that?
If Starbucks is average espresso, then Target is average.... what? I can't even begin to imagine what horrible comparison you would make here. There is no "high quality" store like Target. However, there is a low-quality Target. It is Wal-Mart.
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