Posted Wed Nov 9, 2005, 6:14pm Subject: Re: why is Starbucks so unpopular with coffee lovers
My first (and 2nd, 3rd and many more) was at cafe pergolesi in Santa Cruz CA (back in the 70's). I sure liked it then, though that was before I learned more about coffee. Living in meditteranian countries was when I really learned to appreciate the stuff, and to be able to distinguish between good and bad. Blessed are the Italians, who seem to care more about good coffee then anyone.
I agree with the above post that SB gets too much credit for popularizing coffee culture. There were places to get good coffee before SB, and the emphasis was on good coffee. People go to SB because it's fast or they think it's chic or to use the WiFi. Lance says it's not about the bike, and at SB it's certainly not about the coffee.
peterthepiper Senior Member Joined: 20 Mar 2004 Posts: 252 Location: Vancouver Expertise: Pro Barista
Espresso: La Marzocco FB80/Synesso... Grinder: Anfim Super Caimano... Drip: Fetco/Chemex/Clover
Posted Wed Nov 9, 2005, 7:47pm Subject: Re: why is Starbucks so unpopular with coffee lovers
I'll throw in my few cents now.
I have not bothered with Starbucks for awhile now due to my disagreement with their corporate practices and their overall poor coffee. However, today I broke my no-Starbucks "policy" for an americano, just to update my opinions on their coffee with my more developed knowledge of coffee than I had in the past. Turns out, it's not horrible. It's not great, and I am hesitant to say it's even acceptable, but I have been spoiled recently. Drinking the americano brought back a lot of memories, because I did start drinking coffee/espresso there a few years ago. The espresso has not changed since those first few days I tried it. It's flavor profile is essentially carbon with a bit of caramelized sugar. That's it.
I was blown away however at the speed of the whole process. I barely had to wait before my americano was up. And for milk drinks? I hadn't seen such a huge pitcher ever. It really, honestly was a bucked that probably held 64 oz. No joke. Jason, do you know of these behemoth pieces of steel? There was one guy working the 2 superautos. No skill in the espresso, of course, but his milk looked like genuine microfoam. I must say the tall cappa he poured looked way better than any previous cappa I had ever seen poured at Starbucks. Who knows, maybe I'll try one some day I feel adventurous.
So I guess my beef with them is not respecting the beans the way they should be respected and the whole, in my opinion, faux-gourmet attitude put out by their PR and marketing departments. Faux gourmet gets you nowhere in my books.
I don't remember my first time ;-), but when I lived in Saskatoon I was a regular at the Broadway Roastery. By regular, I mean every lunch hour I would go there for a double capp and read the paper. I still go there for nostalgic reasons whenever I get back to Saskatoon (once a year or so for family reasons). I got to know Vince quite well, and while I think his espresso roast may be a tad dark, he is still producing very good espresso based drinks.
The Edmonton espresso scene absolutlely sucks by comparison....for now.
Jasonian Senior Member Joined: 8 Aug 2005 Posts: 3,816 Location: Lubbock, TX Expertise: Professional
Posted Thu Nov 10, 2005, 12:26am Subject: Re: why is Starbucks so unpopular with coffee lovers
peterthepiper Said:
I'll throw in my few cents now.
I have not bothered with Starbucks for awhile now due to my disagreement with their corporate practices and their overall poor coffee. However, today I broke my no-Starbucks "policy" for an americano, just to update my opinions on their coffee with my more developed knowledge of coffee than I had in the past. Turns out, it's not horrible. It's not great, and I am hesitant to say it's even acceptable, but I have been spoiled recently. Drinking the americano brought back a lot of memories, because I did start drinking coffee/espresso there a few years ago. The espresso has not changed since those first few days I tried it. It's flavor profile is essentially carbon with a bit of caramelized sugar. That's it.
I was blown away however at the speed of the whole process. I barely had to wait before my americano was up. And for milk drinks? I hadn't seen such a huge pitcher ever. It really, honestly was a bucked that probably held 64 oz. No joke. Jason, do you know of these behemoth pieces of steel? There was one guy working the 2 superautos. No skill in the espresso, of course, but his milk looked like genuine microfoam. I must say the tall cappa he poured looked way better than any previous cappa I had ever seen poured at Starbucks. Who knows, maybe I'll try one some day I feel adventurous.
So I guess my beef with them is not respecting the beans the way they should be respected and the whole, in my opinion, faux-gourmet attitude put out by their PR and marketing departments. Faux gourmet gets you nowhere in my books.
Yeah, I know of those behemoth pieces of steel. Honestly a smaller pitcher wouldn't work for a 20oz. milky drink. The steaming power of the Verisimo is nuts. A smaller pitcher would just cause milk to go all over the place. I brought in my 20oz. pitcher to work one day just for the heck of it, and I couldn't use it on anything larger than a 12oz. drink or the steaming would throw milk everywhere. The superautos make frothing really simple for someone who understands the nature of proper frothing. It does take a bit of effort, though, so be happy. I had to teach everyone at my kiosk how to make proper microfoam on the machine, even though it was really easy. Even then, some people never got it, and a lot of them didn't even like coffee to begin with. I did get one of them drinking macchiatos on a regular basis, though. It's crazy going from "I hate coffee" to "give me another macchiato" even made with mediocre espresso. (I don't mean the macchiatte/lacchiatto.. ).
mrbuckets Senior Member Joined: 16 Nov 2005 Posts: 1 Location: Chicago Expertise: I like coffee
Posted Wed Nov 16, 2005, 7:50pm Subject: Re: why is Starbucks so unpopular with coffee lovers
I hate them because I was in the middle of the Appalachian Mountains on a road trip. I was tired as hell and, though I already knew plenty about good coffee, stopped at the Starbucks (please, no more *$...it's a little much) seeing that it was my only option for ??? miles. I ordered a "Grande Latte" (I've never liked the "Italian" lingo, either. Spanish would make more sense...seeing that it is the second language of the USA. It might even retain a little "culture" for the regular clientelle) and recieved a 16oz. Cup with hot Tap Water and one shot of old espresso. I tasted it and threw it away and walked back to the van and decided to take a nap instead. I wasn't driving so that is completely acceptable.
Must...resist! Must not...respond...to massive generalization...passed off as fact...
*deep, controlled breath*
Ok, I'm in my happy cave now.
The reason I don't like Starbucks has nothing to do with the quality of their product...it's because I don't like to see people or companies succee-DOH!
"If your mom were a collection class, her insert method would be public."
Most Americans like starbucks, and THAT ticks off a lot of people who visit this site. It is hard for me to think negatively about them when they are always so friendly and giving. I work near one, and I have only paid for 1 of my last 6 drinks (over 3-4 weeks). I have a Zassenhaus and a swiss gold one cup at work, but sometimes I am just too tired to put forth the effort. They make it very easy to go to the dark(roast)side with the smiles, the compliments of my wife, and the free drinks....
Are you serious? Amazing coincidence.. my first espresso was also at a cafe in Vicenza. I don't remember which, but I do know it was right off the Air Force Base in Vicenza. (I was there on temporary duty with the AF).
Rawman the Expobarbarian.. AKA the Original Jon R.
Posted Thu Nov 17, 2005, 1:54pm Subject: Re: why is Starbucks so unpopular with coffee lovers
I think I have a whole different reasons for hating Starbucks. Here in the Northeast, Starbucks is a recent phenomena. The coffee shops in Portsmouth, NH and Portland, ME were all locally owned and operated before Starbucks. Starbucks did their marketing research beforehand, and plunked down shops right next to the most popular places in town. This is significant because while the locals might continue to patronize their favorite places, Maine and NH are bigtime tourist states with populations tripling in the summertime. The majority of these people are coming through Portsmouth and Portland, and they go to the familiar Starbucks instead of supporting the local businesses. A number of the local coffee shops have closed since Starbucks moved next door. Starbucks here has represented a loss of diversity and money that is leaving the community. Their presence here has been harmful. I realize this is probably just "good business" or whatever, but that doesn't mean I have to like it! Portland and Portsmouth are old cities, as far as US cities go. Their downtowns weren't "corporate owned" until recently. When a family-owned hardware store that has been run by the same family for a hundred years gets replaced by a Bannana Republic, the town loses a bit of its character and uniqueness that it will never get back. But I'm not sure there's any way a local, privately-owned business can compete with a mega-corporation. Starbucks is just part of this homoginization, and pretty soon you'll be able to go to any town in the USA without having any sense that you've actually travelled anywhere, save that in THIS town it goes Starbucks - The Gap - Banana Republic - Old Navy while in THAT town it went The Gap - Starbucks - Old Navy - Banana Republic. I can't help but see this as a bad thing, and I don't think it has anything to do with "hating to see someone be successful." Maybe I'm just old fashioned.
dankbean Senior Member Joined: 8 Jun 2005 Posts: 886 Location: Raleigh, NC Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: mine Roaster: self
Posted Thu Nov 17, 2005, 3:14pm Subject: Re: why is Starbucks so unpopular with coffee lovers
mattleclair Said:
Starbucks is just part of this homoginization, and pretty soon you'll be able to go to any town in the USA without having any sense that you've actually travelled anywhere, save that in THIS town it goes Starbucks - The Gap - Banana Republic - Old Navy while in THAT town it went The Gap - Starbucks - Old Navy - Banana Republic. I can't help but see this as a bad thing, and I don't think it has anything to do with "hating to see someone be successful." Maybe I'm just old fashioned.
my rant with anything Starbucks is over, and i've already stated that, i believe. but while we're talking about homoginization of towns....coming from someone who loves to travel just for the sake of getting on the road....i've seen the OldNavy - Target - Dollar General trend going on all over the place.
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