elkhedewi Senior Member Joined: 5 Dec 2007 Posts: 10 Location: Montreal Expertise: Just starting
Posted Fri Dec 14, 2007, 1:40pm Subject: Help pulling shots during my pre-grinder phase
After lurking for months about the investment, I decided to jump into the deep end.. Kudos to me, I now have two expensive hobbies - my other is audio (audiophile pre-amp/speakers/power cable/interconnects/power-amp/cd player/power bar/you get the picture)..
Rather than drop a load of $ overnight, I decided to space out my purchases, so I am the proud owner of a new Gaggia Carezza with a chrome pf, a powerful single boiler, a reliable pump, but I DON'T HAVE A GRINDER YET..
My first 3 shots out of the box were fantastic by non_CG standards.. I have a roaster just down the street, and a friend picked up some beans for me from which I pulled some shots for myself and two other palettes.. Brownish red crema that did not dissipate, full bodied sweet tasting and nicely balanced.. We were impressed with the machine..
When that batch was done, I got another batch from the same place.. The first shot was as good.. The next were not, I was getting underextracted shots, with a blonde crema, and the taste was acidic or bitter (I can't really tell the two apart yet).. Since the coffee is pre-ground, I tried to compensate by packing more and tamping harder (I got a scale and measured 16g of coffee per shot).. Same results..
The Gaggia comes with a cheap plastic tamper, too small for the PF, so I went out to buy a tamper, but the only one I found was a half-S.S. ball type euro-curve (highly convex) tamper for $17 from an espresso machine shop here.. The "shaft" of the tamper is plastic, which is probably why it came that cheap...
Same results...!
Does anyone have suggestions on improving my shots until I buy a grinder? I am thinking of asking for 3-4 100g bags of the same coffee each ground at a different setting on my roaster's grinder, and try to dial in their grinder to my machine..
Does having pre-ground coffee give a blonder crema? Does pre-ground give less of the coffee sweetness (from the middle of the shot) and more of the acidic/bitter flavour from the beginning/end of the shot? Can compensating for the inaccurate grind by adjusting the tamp and/or dose improve the shot enough?
Posted Fri Dec 14, 2007, 1:58pm Subject: Re: Help pulling shots during my pre-grinder phase
elkhedewi Said:
Rather than drop a load of $ overnight, I decided to space out my purchases, so I am the proud owner of a new Gaggia Carezza with a chrome pf, a powerful single boiler, a reliable pump, but I DON'T HAVE A GRINDER YET...... Does anyone have suggestions on improving my shots until I buy a grinder? ....Any and all suggestions are welcome!Sherif
Your purchasing was backwards. It's like getting speakers first, and buying a receiver later. The grinder should have come first. there are a number of inexpensive brewing methods that can be done with a good grinder, but to use preground coffee for espresso is, IMO, a waste of time and money. In the same way, you could have used headphones with the receiver and bought speakers later.
As has been said before: green coffee is good for fifteen months. Roasted coffee is good for fifteen days. Ground coffee is good for fifteen minutes.
xdavez Senior Member Joined: 21 Nov 2007 Posts: 1,074 Location: Los Angeles Expertise: Professional
Espresso: La Spaziale Vivaldi II Grinder: Mahlkoenig K 30es, Mazzer... Vac Pot: none Drip: Technivorm
Posted Fri Dec 14, 2007, 2:50pm Subject: Re: Help pulling shots during my pre-grinder phase
(comments removed by moderator) - Dave, any feud you have with anyone from alt.coffee will not be tolerated on the CoffeeGeek forums. Keep the comments civil and the bickering away from this website, or I will have to take further action - Mark.
(end moderation)
You did not know!
-- may I suggest the Gaggia MDF grinder (NOT the MM) they are readily available for from about $100 used to about $200, new.
Posted Fri Dec 14, 2007, 9:01pm Subject: Re: Help pulling shots during my pre-grinder phase
Check out ebay for a good hand grinder like a Zassenhaus. It's definitely slower than an electric grinder but for the price you'll pay you're getting a very capable grinder. Later it can do drip/travelling duty when you get a good electric grinder.
Posted Fri Dec 14, 2007, 10:06pm Subject: Re: Help pulling shots during my pre-grinder phase
When I was first starting out, I did the same thing and bought the espresso machine first. My thinking was that by doing this, I can still get ahold of some ground coffee and make the end product which is espresso, cappuccino, lattes, etc. while just having a grinder limits you to grinding beans with no way to make good use of them (other than drip or press or something similar). However, this limits your ability to control the grind adjustment which will likely be frustrating for you. Ideally you'd get them both around the same time. If not, it's probably best to get ahold of the freshest high quality coffee you can find and either have a friend or a local shop grind it for you while you're waiting to get a grinder. It should be better than the commonly stale store-bought coffee and about as good as you can get for the time being. That's what I did during that time and it was OK but not anything like what I am making now.
Posted Sat Dec 15, 2007, 10:55am Subject: Re: Help pulling shots during my pre-grinder phase
Pre grinding would be a difficult thing to do if you're looking for good espresso quality. I grind for dose with every extraction and still if environmental factors like humidity or variables like roast freshness/blend/quality change I have to change my grind for the same extraction rates.
Pre grinding would be like trying to predict the future. First you'd have to guess at what grind fineness would work, then predict how the grind will change over time as it oxidizes and still you'd have no way of knowing what your environment is going to be like when you pull your shot. To top it off you don't know what state a commercial grinder's burrs are in so grind quality could be questionable as well.
It's better than nothing, sure, but it could be very frustrating to get anything decent from pre grinding even with a fresh roast.
Posted Sat Dec 15, 2007, 11:31am Subject: Re: Help pulling shots during my pre-grinder phase
Howdy! I know EXACTLY what you're going through - read my post "Noob sees the light." I also bought a Carezza and not a grinder. I finally landed a grinder on eBay for $50, and during the time before I could get it repaired, I was getting coffee from the bulk section of my local grocery store and experimenting with their grinder, so if you've got a grocery store close by where you can buy whole beans and grind them there, then try that out. It'll take you a while to find just the right grind, and it's a nuisance driving back and forth.
This will probably be *okay* if you're making lattes or capps, but you'll have a hard time making drinkable straight espresso shots. Even if you're not, as I've learned, having a grinder is absolutely essential to making good espresso. It takes a lot of experimenting with grind and tamping and temperature different beans to get good espresso shots (I still have MUCH to learn), and when you've got a grinder right there at home, you've got more room to experiment.
Also, a good, heavy tamper really helps, and personally, I prefer a flat bottomed tamper to a convex one - again. Rather than go into all of the details again here, read my post "Noob sees the light." It addresses a lot of what I'm saying.
elkhedewi Senior Member Joined: 5 Dec 2007 Posts: 10 Location: Montreal Expertise: Just starting
Posted Mon Dec 17, 2007, 8:34am Subject: Re: Help pulling shots during my pre-grinder phase
Thanks for all your tips..
I've done a ton of research and out of the Cunill Tranquilo, Gaggia MDF, Ascaso i-2, and Nemox Lux I'm probably going with the MDF both for its flat burrs (as in the Rocky) and its lower price compared with the Cunill and Ascaso..
Musicman that "Noob sees the light" post is a great read.. Thanks! I'll have to change my tamper for a better one... Believe it or not I'm back to using the plastic tamper provided, I think the curve is way too convex on the one I bought!
So I did end up buying 3 levels of grind, and the "best" grind at that moment in the space time continuum was somewhere between level #2 and level #3 on the roaster's grinder.. #2 gave me a 50 second shot and #3 gave me a 20 second shot... Both tasted good, which is the key thing of course.. I'll probably get both #2 and #3 and continue experimenting....
One thing I've now confirmed is that about 12 hours after the coffee is ground the crema is much blonder and the coffee a little more bitter.. However a good tasting shot can still be achieved..
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