Chiho Senior Member Joined: 7 Mar 2004 Posts: 25 Location: Kyushu, Japan Expertise: Just starting
Posted Sat Mar 20, 2004, 1:47am Subject: Thinking about returning my machine and giving up pursuit of great espresso...
Hi. I have been pestering many of you on this board for advice regarding espresso the last couple of weeks-thanks for all of your help! I went into this thinking never having experienced great straight shots of espresso (I always drink Americano's) but looking forward to pulling great shots.
Anyways, I was getting some consistent results, but thought I had much room for improvement, as the shots I pulled, while tasty, just weren't the heavenly experience that had been described as the hallmark of great espresso (never having experienced it myself). So, I went to Stumptown in Portland yesterday for the first time, expecting to be blown away by the espresso and therefore have a benchmark to work toward at home, realizing what was possible. I left very dissapointed-the espresso was okay, a bit bitter and light in color, not real tasty-I have pulled many shots better than that at home already! Well, if this is what good espresso is, then I realize that I was expecting too much. Sure, a good shot is quite tasty and a worthwhile pursuit, but not worth $1100 in equipment or $8 a week in beans, at least not at this point in my life! I feel like a person who bought a bunch of climbing gear only to realize that, although they love to climb, they are also scared of heights! .
I guess I am lucky that I have a great coffee shop 100 meters from my workplace, which has a well-tuned LM Linea, Mazzer Super Jolly's and baristas that know what they are doing (I would say that they also, on average, pull a better shot than I had at Stumptown yesterday). So, I guess that qualifies as a pretty high-end coffee shop. As much as I would love to keep my machine and grinder (Relax/Rocky combo) I just don't see the value when I can get such high-quality shots just down the street (I spend just as much money there buying beans as I ever did with my daily Americano). I may work there part-time this summer, just so I can refine my technique and skills, and have some fun as well!
Anyways, thanks for all of your help on this board! I hope to keep at it in the future-maybe I am still missing something that I will finally taste and wake up to in the future!
malachi Senior Member Joined: 5 May 2002 Posts: 1,758 Location: SFCA Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Monster Mia (for now)_ Grinder: Monster Cimballi Junior Vac Pot: Not any more Drip: never Roaster: Ecco, Stumptown, Intelli,...
Posted Sat Mar 20, 2004, 3:18pm Subject: Re: Thinking about returning my machine and giving up
espresso, like many things, is entirely subjective. some people love it, some (with equally good taste) can take it or leave it and others hate it. in addition - an espresso that tastes "god-like" to one (experienced) taster might taste mediocre to another (equally worldly) taster. it's all personal taste.
i know people who don't like Stumptown coffees - they find them flat and somewhat boring. people who like them describe them as "finessed" and "balanced". flip sides of the same coin, one might say.
as a final note... pretty much every espresso bar, especially those that roast their own beans, has a drink (or drinks) that they do best - and which everything from bean to roast to extraction time is optimized for. this results in some sacrifices in other drinks as a result. for example... Cafe Artigiano in Vancouver does amazing Lattes and pride themselves on their Lattes. as a result, their Cappuccinos are quite good - but their straight espresso was merely good (and I found it a bit sharp - a likely result of extracting for inclusion in lots of milk). if there is a drink that you like best, you're probably going to want to find a place that really specializes in that drink.
Posted Sat Mar 20, 2004, 4:31pm Subject: Re: Thinking about returning my machine and giving up
Definitely don't base your final decision on your Stumptown experience. I have been to all three, with different results (none terrible, but some better than others). I favor the Stumptown on Division, but Belmont is OK too. I think beside enjoying the product, we all love having and working with the equipment. I'm the only person in our circle of friends who has espresso equipment, and it has been a fun experience when they are over. If you have a passion for doing it yourself, great- if you get just as much enjoyment from buying at your local shop, that's OK too. But have faith, I've seen many posts that say they can pull better shots at home than they can buy anywhere.
malachi Senior Member Joined: 5 May 2002 Posts: 1,758 Location: SFCA Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Monster Mia (for now)_ Grinder: Monster Cimballi Junior Vac Pot: Not any more Drip: never Roaster: Ecco, Stumptown, Intelli,...
Posted Sat Mar 20, 2004, 4:59pm Subject: Re: Thinking about returning my machine and giving up
i hesitate to weigh in on the "better shots at home" argument, but i think it's fair to say that all of us stand to gain a huge amount if the rabid enthusiasts take their business, their passion and their demanding requirements to commercial establishments. right now, the large percentage of customers at most commercial establishments are the sort of people that make baristi not care about producing good drinks.
as Jim Shulman wrote...
What struck me the most was the shock of recognition. The decline in coffee quality had turned me into a home roasting coffee hobbyist, suspicious of people in the business. It had probably made people like Doug and Barry equally suspicious about the coffee taste of the public. Then we meet, and it's almost instantly clear, these people are like us, they love coffee, it's one of the great pleasures in their lives. I'm a pessimist by nature, but Ithink Doug is right; only good things can come from creating closer and more regularized ties between the coffee hobbyists and connoisseurs like the alties, and quality conscious roasters like Doug and Barry.
we also all have a lot to lose if the knowledgable, passionate customers continue to move toward only making coffee at home. the "dumbing down" of commercial coffee is a depressing trend - perhaps even more so for professionals like myself than the passionate enthusiasts out there.
if folks who know coffee, and care about coffee, start going to commercial establishments - especially if they demand good coffee, punish poor coffee, and reward great coffee - this will increase the standards and, with luck, reverse the "dumbing down" trend.
as for what's in it for you all... first of all, you'll be able to start getting great coffee in commercial establishments. that alone is a good, and significant, change. secondly, you'll be responsible for positive change. and third, you'll be likely to learn and develop as coffee enthusiasts - no, as coffee fanatics. the truth is that i've never had an espresso in someone's home that is as good as what i've had in commercial establishments. now... this statement is, of course, a cheat. like pretty much all professional baristi, i'm far more likely to get a great shot than your average consumer. this is due, in part, to the fact that many of the shots i drink are ones i make. and, of course, it's also due to the fact that baristi are proud -- if we're building a drink for another pro (or, important point, someone we know is going to appreciate what we're doing) we want it to be as good as possible. but the simple reality is that i get far more practice than even the most rabid of home espresso freaks. in a slow shift i'll probably pull more shots than most folks pull at home in a month. given that i have a passion for making good espresso and given that i've been well trained, and given that i have great equipment and beans... practice truly does make perfect. as a friend said after i'd fiddled around on his home setup and then made him a Cappuccino, "well - that's cheating! You do this for a living." given this, by going out to get coffee - you all can not only make coffee better - you can probably learn more about coffee. god knows that i learn more about coffee every single time i walk into a decent espresso bar.
so please... consider this a plea. don't give up on the commercial joints. folks like you all are pretty much the only hope for people like me.
Posted Sat Mar 20, 2004, 6:04pm Subject: Re: Thinking about returning my machine and giving up
malachi Said:
we also all have a lot to lose if the knowledgable, passionate customers continue to move toward only making coffee at home. the "dumbing down" of commercial coffee is a depressing trend - perhaps even more so for professionals like myself than the passionate enthusiasts out there.
if folks who know coffee, and care about coffee, start going to commercial establishments - especially if they demand good coffee, punish poor coffee, and reward great coffee - this will increase the standards and, with luck, reverse the "dumbing down" trend.
It's so hard to know what to do. My local shop can't pull a shot to save its life. I have to drive a half hour across town to JJ Bean to get a barista that cares about good espresso. That's not a viable option for me.
As you said in a posting earlier this month:
malachi Said:
- if we can celebrate, publicize and frequent the rare places that do good work - those places are more likely to succeed and inspire and thus raise the overall quality. complaining merely reinforces instead of changes.
So how do we "demand good coffee" without complaining about bad coffee? If we can't get behind the counter to help baristas learn to adjust tamp/grind/extraction time (because of liability reasons), we can instruct from afar, but it's hard to do in a shop where customers are waiting for 10 minutes while we fiddle with the grinder. Besides, I don't have the time to do this -- I have too many other things to do.
So, I guess the question comes down to "How can we effectively punish the brackish espresso except using the suggestion box and going elsewhere?" Even if we do, it won't matter because aficionados are a very very very small percentage of the average coffee bar's clientele, I assume. They'll continue making profits while they're ringing in $5.00 for their caramel flavored mochachino with whipped cream and sprinkles on top. Who cares about that cranky guy who always complains the shots are "too fast!?!?"
Dana Leighton - Espresso hack and CoffeeGeek moderator
malachi Senior Member Joined: 5 May 2002 Posts: 1,758 Location: SFCA Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Monster Mia (for now)_ Grinder: Monster Cimballi Junior Vac Pot: Not any more Drip: never Roaster: Ecco, Stumptown, Intelli,...
Posted Sat Mar 20, 2004, 6:50pm Subject: Re: Thinking about returning my machine and giving up
hmmm... i have to admit, i may be obsessed. i used to drive into Vancouver from Squamish to go to JJ Bean.
my suggestions? 1 - try to go to JJ Bean and/or Artigiano when you can, 2 - complain to management and ownership of the bad bars while also offering constructive suggestions for improvement (tell 'em to hire Aaron to train them and their staff), 3 - suggest to JJ Bean and/or Artigiano that they open a location closer to you, 4 - when complaining about bad drinks - give one piece of feedback at a time. i know, i know... the grind is too coarse, the coffee is old, the portafilters are dirty and the cups are not heated. pick the sweet spot of easy to address and big improvement and gently say, "would you do me a favor and pull me another shot with the grinder adjusted a little towards Fine?" then have them taste the difference. with luck, the light will go on.
i don't think you can just have the carrot - you're right. you also need the stick. complain about the bad places, while also celebrating the good. vote with your wallet - if the choice is a place 10 minutes away the sucks or 15 minutes away that is good - go the extra 5 minutes.
and actually, at any place you'd want to go to, you are the person they care about. if someone complains that their Mocha Monkey Butt Frappe needs more peppermint it's not like i'm going to learn anything from it or adjust my performance. on the other hand, if someone says "you know, this ristretto shot tastes a little flat. could the machine be dirty?" you can believe me when i say that i'll be cleaning the machine before i make a single drink.
Symbols: = New Posts since your last visit = No New Posts since last visit = Newest post
Forum Rules: No profanity, illegal acts or personal attacks will be tolerated in these discussion boards. No commercial posting of any nature will be tolerated; only private sales by private individuals, in the "Buy and Sell" forum. No cross posting allowed - do not post your topic to more than one forum, nor repost a topic to the same forum. Who Can Read The Forum? Anyone can read posts in these discussion boards. Who Can Post New Topics? Any registered CoffeeGeek member can post new topics. Who Can Post Replies? Any registered CoffeeGeek member can post replies. Can Photos be posted? Anyone can post photos in their new topics or replies. Who can change or delete posts? Any CoffeeGeek member can edit their own posts. Only moderators can delete posts. Probationary Period: If you are a new signup for CoffeeGeek, you cannot promote, endorse, criticise or otherwise post an unsolicited endorsement for any company, product or service in your first five postings.
= No New Posts since last visit 