Det_Nosnip Senior Member Joined: 23 Feb 2007 Posts: 12 Location: Chicago, IL Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: Gaggia Carezza Grinder: Starbucks Barista Drip: Some Mr. Coffee thing Roaster: Not yet!
Posted Sat Nov 7, 2009, 11:45am Subject: Ridiculously quick extractions despite my greatest efforts...
= Time for new grinder? About the only solution I can come up with...it's been a LONG time since I've timed my shots (probably at least a year), and I noticed that the extraction quality was getting a little pour (dark black, weak taste, no crema), so I decided to bust out the timer and was shocked at the results:
2 shots, poured all the way to the top (nearly overflowing), took about 14.5 seconds.
I cranked the grinder to the finest setting and really drove in hard when tamping, and was still unable to come anywhere close to the 23-30 second recommended extraction time. Any thoughts?
jester747 Senior Member Joined: 4 Nov 2009 Posts: 5 Location: Tampa, FL Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Achille Gaggia, Handpresso,... Grinder: Kyocera hand grinder,... Roaster: BM+HG
Posted Sat Nov 7, 2009, 1:10pm Subject: Re: Ridiculously quick extractions despite my greatest efforts...
You might want to mention what machine you're using (I only saw reference to your moka pot in your profile) since there might be some model-specific advice someone might help you with...
but generally speaking, you're doing the right thing by grinding finer, dosing more and tamping harder to overcome quick extractions... if you're certain that your grinder is still performing as it did back when your shots were acceptable then my first guess would be a channeling issue. What do your pucks look like? Do you have a naked PF? You can grind down to turkish, dose 20 grams and do a 50lb tamp yet if you're having clumping issues or some other catalyst for channeling then you'll still get your 2oz as fast as your machine can pump it out (bit of hyperbole I know, but you get the picture). To avoid throwing money at the problem, start out using the WDT technique for distribution, see if that helps, and pay extra attention to tamping, to make sure you're not causing separation from the sides of the basket in your efforts to tamper harder which would actually work against you. Also, as beans get older it becomes more difficult to maintain good puck integrity.
The last, but least likely culprit would be your machine's pressure being out of spec... it might have drifted to higher than normal. Or, if it needs a good descaling, then the smaller diameter of the water conduits would increase pressure too, again, bringing your extraction times down.
So basically... start with checking your distribution and bean age... don't overdo the tamp as this can cause more trouble than it fixes oftentimes. However, if you're machine has a pressurized PF, then disregard just about everything I said! :-) Again, what machine are you using?
Posted Sat Nov 7, 2009, 2:15pm Subject: Re: Ridiculously quick extractions despite my greatest efforts...
How old are the beans? (When were they roasted?) What grinder are you using?
What has changed since you had better success?
It is almost certainly not the machine pressure or clogging causing fast extraction, but channeling is a possibility (as it always is).. Here is a link to the WDT method for improving shot preparation: CLICK THIS
JmanEspresso Senior Member Joined: 18 Jan 2009 Posts: 1,689 Location: Fishkill, NY Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: La Spaziale Vivaldi II Grinder: Macap MXK - Vario Vac Pot: Yama-SY5/SY8/TCA5 Drip: Clever Driper, Bunch O... Roaster: Hottop B
Posted Sat Nov 7, 2009, 8:40pm Subject: Re: Ridiculously quick extractions despite my greatest efforts...
Sounds like the classic tell-tale symptoms of Stale Coffee. Even a 10 second shot with fresh coffee has lots of crema. Granted, its not a good shot, but still.
Det_Nosnip Senior Member Joined: 23 Feb 2007 Posts: 12 Location: Chicago, IL Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: Gaggia Carezza Grinder: Starbucks Barista Drip: Some Mr. Coffee thing Roaster: Not yet!
Posted Sun Nov 8, 2009, 8:23am Subject: Re: Ridiculously quick extractions despite my greatest efforts...
Eh...I usually buy local but this bag is European...I got it from a Julius Meinl near my house. The thing is, though, that when I had espresso at the cafe, it was amazing...great crema, fantastic taste...so I started to think "maybe you CAN ship vacuum sealed coffee overseas..." Is it possible that they have some special distribution deal so that the espresso they use in the store is shipped daily/weekly or something?
So it seems we've solved the crema issue...but that doesn't explain the quick extraction. I can't think of any possible way that the age of a bean would affect how long it takes to shoot through a basket, so what IS doing that?
Posted Sun Nov 8, 2009, 8:53am Subject: Re: Ridiculously quick extractions despite my greatest efforts...
Det_Nosnip Said:
So it seems we've solved the crema issue...but that doesn't explain the quick extraction. I can't think of any possible way that the age of a bean would affect how long it takes to shoot through a basket, so what IS doing that?
Actually, this is exactly the case. The beans are old and dry, and so the grounds will not hold togethyer well enough to provide proper resistance. If you could grind fine enough (think baby powder fine) you could get a 25 second shot. It would still be thin and listless but at least the timing would be right.
JmanEspresso Senior Member Joined: 18 Jan 2009 Posts: 1,689 Location: Fishkill, NY Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: La Spaziale Vivaldi II Grinder: Macap MXK - Vario Vac Pot: Yama-SY5/SY8/TCA5 Drip: Clever Driper, Bunch O... Roaster: Hottop B
Posted Sun Nov 8, 2009, 1:42pm Subject: Re: Ridiculously quick extractions despite my greatest efforts...
Yes, Jon is correct. Once beans become stale, you eventually CANNOT grind them fine enough to produce a 25 second shot, let alone ANYTHING that would taste good.
You need fresh roasted coffee. Without it, good espresso simply can't, and wont, happen.
Det_Nosnip Senior Member Joined: 23 Feb 2007 Posts: 12 Location: Chicago, IL Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: Gaggia Carezza Grinder: Starbucks Barista Drip: Some Mr. Coffee thing Roaster: Not yet!
Posted Mon Nov 9, 2009, 2:00pm Subject: Re: Ridiculously quick extractions despite my greatest efforts...
There seem to be other issues as well. Today I bought a half lb of Metropolis coffee (great local roasting company) and gave it a whirl...got crema (indicating the beans were fresh), but still 15 seconds and still an underextracted taste (kind of watery...low acidity...bleh!) Help! Is there something wrong with my machine?
Maybe, but I would check for operator errors first :-))
No offense intended, but these things usually come down to our technique rather than being issues with the machine. If you have a bottomless portafilter you can can see if you're getting channeling (and diagnose other issues as well.
Otherwise I might suggest dosing a bit lower in the basket, and grind finer, and then tamp softly (once, straight down, with NO tapping or twisting or knocking at all). Also lock in very carefully and make sure you don't knock or bump the portafilter once it has been prepared. Keep it simple and see if that helps.
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