Joel_B Senior Member Joined: 9 Oct 2007 Posts: 1,823 Location: Pacific NW Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Astra Mega II Grinder: Mazzer SJ, Virtuoso Vac Pot: Yama 5 cup Drip: nope, french press Roaster: Behmor, WP, BBQ drum
Posted Thu Sep 16, 2010, 8:24am Subject: Re: I forgot how to pull shots
JonR10 Said:
Since this started after doing a cleaning on the grinder, I would look there first. As I commented on your other thread, it sounds like it might be a burr misalignment.
If the burrs are misaligned (even 50 microns - the width of an eyelash) it can cause serious issues. This could also explain why you have to grind so close to burrs touching to get proper timing for your shot (i.e. one side touches before the other).
The sweet spot for espresso on most Mazzer grinders is about 1/4 turn from true zero, give or take. If you are much closer to zero than that, it could very well be burrs not laying perfectly flat on the mounting (burr carrier).
Jon, I hadn't heard of the 1/4 turn. I'm at 1/8 of a turn from true zero. I've removed and replaced the burrs several times, have ensured it was spick 'n span, and the 1/8 has been pretty constant for me. Any thoughts on this? I was told the burrs had only 15lbs through them, but would dull burrs be that off? Don't know the origin of the burrs, is it possible that non OEM burrs could have a defect?
Posted Thu Sep 16, 2010, 9:09am Subject: Re: I forgot how to pull shots
Joel_B Said:
Any thoughts on this? I was told the burrs had only 15lbs through them, but would dull burrs be that off? Don't know the origin of the burrs, is it possible that non OEM burrs could have a defect?
I wouldn't worry about it. My "1/4 turn" statement is a rough estimate and (loosely) coincides with the factory sticker setting on most of the Mazzers I've owned and used (I've touched quite a few of these over the years).
It seems like the difference between 1/8 and 1/4 turn might be from manufacturing variance on burrs or burr carriers. I believe that "OEM" burrs are made at more than one place and maybe the tolerance on overall height or alowable area for the flat at the OD allows for quite a bit of difference (and also tolerance on burr carrier surfaces may have effect as well).
But if the setting to make espresso is too close to zero then there isn't much room for adjustment, and if this results in excessive powder sludge in the cup at proper extraction flow rate then it's a pretty sure bet that there is an anlignment problem.
Joel_B Senior Member Joined: 9 Oct 2007 Posts: 1,823 Location: Pacific NW Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Astra Mega II Grinder: Mazzer SJ, Virtuoso Vac Pot: Yama 5 cup Drip: nope, french press Roaster: Behmor, WP, BBQ drum
Posted Thu Sep 16, 2010, 9:19am Subject: Re: I forgot how to pull shots
JonR10 Said:
But if the setting to make espresso is too close to zero then there isn't much room for adjustment, and if this results in excessive powder sludge in the cup at proper extraction flow rate then it's a pretty sure bet that there is an anlignment problem.
Jon, thanks for the feedback. No sludge or powder in the cup. Coffee's good (could always be better). In terms of reference I'm probably 1 to 1 1/4 whole #s above true zero. Of coarse, there's so many factors (machine, beans, dose, etc), but does that seem reasonable?
Posted Thu Sep 16, 2010, 9:47am Subject: Re: I forgot how to pull shots
Joel_B Said:
In terms of reference I'm probably 1 to 1 1/4 whole #s above true zero. Of coarse, there's so many factors (machine, beans, dose, etc), but does that seem reasonable?
Seems reasonable to me! I believe that there are ten numbers, and there are ten "tick marks" between each number - so each whole number is 36° and each tick mark is 3.6°. Since a quarter turn is 45° then I'd say you're well within reasonable territory.
JDHarding Senior Member Joined: 31 Aug 2007 Posts: 1,099 Location: WA, USA Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Ascaso Steel Pro PID Grinder: Nuova Simonelli MDX,... Vac Pot: None Drip: Hario v60 Roaster: Behmor, Fresh Roast
Posted Thu Sep 16, 2010, 4:00pm Subject: Re: I forgot how to pull shots
I didn't unscrew the burrs and remove them and clean them. I only unscrewed the dial and scrubbed them. The dial is about 10 of those little bumps away from absolute zero. I got it between two bumps to try for my next shot, 'cause one bump is slightly too fast, and the other is slightly too slow. The middle should be dead on. I'm talking fast and slow as in only a few seconds. One is 23 seconds, the other is about 35 seconds. The middle should be 28 or so seconds.
Anyway, thanks for the guide on using the machine. I'll try that next time. When the machine is all heated up, I usually purge the steam wand, then do a short purge of the machine till the light goes on. Once it goes off, I pull the shot. But this has given me bitter shots, so.. not sure what's going on there. I really gotta get a digital thermometer on this thing and throw out it's analog one. They did release the Ascaso Dream Up, which supposedly has a better gauge, but I doubt it. I tried configuring the gauge using a digital probe and tweaked the gauge based on what the probe read, but now when the light goes off the gauge reads 210 degrees, which can't be right.
I just got some dezcal in and washed the machine. It sounds a little better now. I also got Ascaso's grouphead upgrade, which replaces the screen and head with better parts that spread the water evenly over the puck. I pulled a shot with it, and it looked good, but it was bitter. I don't know if my day old beans are still too young to brew right, or if I'm still doing something wrong. Should the age really matter that much?
JDHarding Senior Member Joined: 31 Aug 2007 Posts: 1,099 Location: WA, USA Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Ascaso Steel Pro PID Grinder: Nuova Simonelli MDX,... Vac Pot: None Drip: Hario v60 Roaster: Behmor, Fresh Roast
Posted Thu Sep 16, 2010, 4:55pm Subject: Re: I forgot how to pull shots
Just got done actually unscrewing the burrs and cleaning around them. I scrubbed them good, and the surfaces they sit on, and even the screws. When I put everything back together, they were off by a couple bumps. I just pulled a 15 second shot with my previous setting, so I moved it over 2 bumps. It should be good now. I'm too tired to attempt another shot. Too much cleaning and work involved. *yawn*
Oh, do you guys know how to remove the bottom burr carriage? I thought it was just unscrewing the bolt at the top, but that did nothing. Unless the whole carriage is threaded on there. If so, nevermind. I ain't even gonna attempt that.
I don't own a Mazzer so maybe I'm missing something here - but it seems to me that 1/4 turn is 90° - at least if we are talking 1/4 of a pie (isn't this the upper burr carrier turning in degrees of a circle?) - there are 360° in a full circle.
In any event - I'm surprised since my fiorenzato T80 (which I thought was pretty similar to a SJ) is set to much less of a turn from zero - if I went 1/4 of a circle (90° as I'm seeing it) I'd be getting gushers. The Mazzers must have really fine threads on that upper burr carrier.
JDHarding Senior Member Joined: 31 Aug 2007 Posts: 1,099 Location: WA, USA Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Ascaso Steel Pro PID Grinder: Nuova Simonelli MDX,... Vac Pot: None Drip: Hario v60 Roaster: Behmor, Fresh Roast
Posted Thu Sep 16, 2010, 5:15pm Subject: Re: I forgot how to pull shots
By their logic, I'm about 1 number from true zero. Though I'm not sure how you guys find true zero on your machines. I run the grinder, and do little increments till I hear the burrs lightly kiss. Maybe you guys leave the machine off, and screw the dial down till you can't go anymore, then back off 1 to 1-1/4 numbers on the dial, which is pretty much the same. Maybe there's a 2 bump difference between the two different true zeros, which is 1/4 a number. So 1-1/4 numbers from the burrs squished against each other.
Posted Thu Sep 16, 2010, 5:36pm Subject: Re: I forgot how to pull shots
On my machine (Fiorenzato - so it's different but it's about the same size and similar quality - same size burrs). My dial is numbered differently and mine is NOT stepless - I have notches to click into. 1/4 turn is number 5, 1/2 turn 10, 3/4 15 and a full circle back to zero would be 20. I have 4 clicks between each number.
I don't know how other people find zero - I do it with the motor off and the power cord unplugged. I stick my finger through the center (where the beans go in) and turn the lower burr with my finger as I adjust until they just kiss.
I leave it set at 1.5 (six clicks) from where the burrs just touch - I dose light (7 gram singles, 14 gram doubles). If I dose the way most people do (if I fill the basket and level it off before tamping) I'd have to go 2 more clicks to number 2. That is less than 1/8 of a turn (2 out of 20 makes it 1/10 of a turn) - but the Mazzer may have finer threads.
I've read posts where people say new burrs should be sharp enough to cut yourself or shave a fingernail - so I figured mine must really be dull ... I bought new burrs for mine and there is no way I could cut myself on them (not much different from the old ones, guess they weren't dull after all) - mazzer burrs must be very different from fiorenzato burrs or their skin isn't as thick as mine. :)
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