jwoodyu Senior Member Joined: 31 Dec 2010 Posts: 705 Location: Michigan Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Allex Duetto II Grinder: Mazzer Major Roaster: Poppery
Posted Sat Aug 20, 2011, 9:11am Subject: Anyone give up on their VST baskets and revert back to their old ones? Why?
Anyone give up on their VST baskets and revert back to their old ones? Why?
Just looking for feedback on the baskets that "could change the world of espresso" now they we are some odd months down stream of the release date.
You know those people that want to tell you how to raise your kids but have none of their own? That is how i feel when someone with a kitchen appliance tells me how the merits or dis-merits of my machine or how to use it.
TonyVan Senior Member Joined: 24 May 2010 Posts: 269 Location: Pacific Northwest Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: GS/3, La Pavoni Grinder: Macap M7K, Rocky Drip: Kone
Posted Sat Aug 20, 2011, 12:43pm Subject: Re: Anyone give up on their VST baskets and revert back to their old ones? Why?
-1! For me, going back would be "regressing," not "reverting."
Converting over to the VSTs was a learning process, but going through that cleaned up my grinding / dosing / tamping technique and simplified my routine greatly. I’m now convinced that all those tricks such as multi-tamping, edge-packing, nutating, convex tampers, concave leveling etc. are compensations likely necessitated by filter baskets with unsound design or manufacture.
Especially given a superb combination such as your Izzo + Baratza setup and their great stability and consistency, investing 1% more to add a filter basket that's engineered and manufactured exactingly to optimize extraction and taste seems like an easy decision.
And I think the case is particularly convincing given the filter holes across the three-size VST range are tuned for your 58mm puck aspect ratios and volume balanced across the usable span from 13 grams to 23 grams. Once you dial in these baskets, the changes you taste experimenting with new roasts, doses, temperatures etc. will all be about the differences in those coffees and treatements, NOT the baskets. The VST's greatest strength may be that they disappear as an active variable.
Besides, in espresso, aesthetics matter; consider how we all applaud these high-end machines for their beautiful design, perfect mirrored surfaces and invisible welds. With the VSTs, we're no longer condemned to tamping our carefully selected and lovingly handled coffee into baskets that look like recycled tuna cans.
Posted Sat Aug 20, 2011, 1:12pm Subject: Re: Anyone give up on their VST baskets and revert back to their old ones? Why?
TonyVan Said:
-1! For me, going back would be "regressing," not "reverting."
Converting over to the VSTs was a learning process, but going through that cleaned up my grinding / dosing / tamping technique and simplified my routine greatly.
This mirrors my experience. Now that I'm grinding a bit finer and doing a simple levelling, not only is my routine simplified but my results are very consistent. I can use either the flat or convex tamper and it doesn't seem to make any difference.
jwoodyu Senior Member Joined: 31 Dec 2010 Posts: 705 Location: Michigan Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Allex Duetto II Grinder: Mazzer Major Roaster: Poppery
Posted Sat Aug 20, 2011, 3:37pm Subject: Re: Anyone give up on their VST baskets and revert back to their old ones? Why?
JonR10 Said:
This mirrors my experience. Now that I'm grinding a bit finer and doing a simple levelling, not only is my routine simplified but my results are very consistent. I can use either the flat or convex tamper and it doesn't seem to make any difference.
I am still using mine with good results in the cup, when every thing else is right of course. My dose does not quite fill the basket and this method seemed a good way to go. I have been using it for a several days now but the center seems flow to bead and then cone. I thought it might be the convex base i am using in combination with the spinning that tightens the center of the buck to much. Perhaps it is to much spinning but in any event it appears to be tighter in the center. I have a new flat base coming but will have to see how much difference if any it makes.
You know those people that want to tell you how to raise your kids but have none of their own? That is how i feel when someone with a kitchen appliance tells me how the merits or dis-merits of my machine or how to use it.
It's possible. And I should really make a little video to show what I'm doing now because it's slightly different than what james was doing in the clip I stole from him.
I lower the tamper until it's just barely touching the grounds, and rotate it to and fro but never letting go. So I gently twist it back and forth as I let it gradually lower just a bit until the coffee is flat and evenly distributed...never letting the full weight of the tamper onto the grounds.
To get a feel for how deep this is I would twist a bit and then lift the tamper out iteratively until I could see that the grounds were flat and even with no holes or high spots. Then I tamp straight down, and usually this compresses the grounds about 1/4 inch further.
Now that I've practiced for a week, I do the entire process in maybe 10 seconds and I don't need to lift out the tamper in the middle. I just dose in, quick WDT stir, remove the funnel and tap down to settle, then do my little twisty-twist and tamp straight straight down
Joel_B Senior Member Joined: 9 Oct 2007 Posts: 1,823 Location: Pacific NW Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Astra Mega II Grinder: Mazzer SJ, Virtuoso Vac Pot: Yama 5 cup Drip: nope, french press Roaster: Behmor, WP, BBQ drum
Posted Sat Aug 20, 2011, 6:11pm Subject: Re: Anyone give up on their VST baskets and revert back to their old ones? Why?
First off, John, good thread start!
Just as an aside, I've been criticized for being concerned with the price of the baskets. As a bit of a disclaimer, my finances over the last few years have changed significantly enough that I wont just spend an extra $20 for a basket simply to try it out.
So I'm still confused to what these baskets do. I understand the quality and the math, but what does it equate to? My impression is that the shots aren't necessarily better but it takes less "messing with" to get the same results. I'd equate it to the shots from my Astra vs my Ascaso; both could produce respectable shots but the effort involved was much higher on the ascaso. Am I wrong on this? Do they intrinsically make a noticeable or Even significant (improved) difference in the cup?
jwoodyu Senior Member Joined: 31 Dec 2010 Posts: 705 Location: Michigan Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Allex Duetto II Grinder: Mazzer Major Roaster: Poppery
Posted Sat Aug 20, 2011, 6:40pm Subject: Re: Anyone give up on their VST baskets and revert back to their old ones? Why?
Joel_B Said:
First off, John, good thread start!
Just as an aside, I've been criticized for being concerned with the price of the baskets. As a bit of a disclaimer, my finances over the last few years have changed significantly enough that I wont just spend an extra $20 for a basket simply to try it out.
So I'm still confused to what these baskets do. I understand the quality and the math, but what does it equate to? My impression is that the shots aren't necessarily better but it takes less "messing with" to get the same results. I'd equate it to the shots from my Astra vs my Ascaso; both could produce respectable shots but the effort involved was much higher on the ascaso. Am I wrong on this? Do they intrinsically make a noticeable or Even significant (improved) difference in the cup?
Thanks I hoped it would be and certainly something i wanted to read. It's all so very subjective and my technique is immature the other Jon's opinion is a far better measure. That said I can tell you i prefer my espresso hands down from the VST and there is room for improvement still. I can't have more than one this late but my first draw using the tamping method Jon described looked better on the bottom of the basket though i can tell little difference in my evening cap.
You know those people that want to tell you how to raise your kids but have none of their own? That is how i feel when someone with a kitchen appliance tells me how the merits or dis-merits of my machine or how to use it.
That's good to know. I havent kept up with the original thread regarding the vst baskets, but from asfar as I followed it, I hadn't been convinced it was worth the money. Anyway, I truly hope this thread opens up what people really feel about the baskets beyond initial impressions (either good or bad). It'll be exciting to see how this progresses.
Posted Sat Aug 20, 2011, 9:41pm Subject: Re: Anyone give up on their VST baskets and revert back to their old ones? Why?
JonR10 Said:
I lower the tamper until it's just barely touching the grounds, and rotate it to and fro but never letting go. So I gently twist it back and forth as I let it gradually lower just a bit until the coffee is flat and evenly distributed...never letting the full weight of the tamper onto the grounds.
Posted Mon Aug 22, 2011, 11:33am Subject: Re: Anyone give up on their VST baskets and revert back to their old ones? Why?
TonyVan Said:
I’m now convinced that all those tricks such as multi-tamping, edge-packing, nutating, convex tampers, concave leveling etc. are compensations likely necessitated by filter baskets with unsound design or manufacture.
I'd add just one little caveat to that statement. Most of those are tamper tricks, nutating is a distribution trick, as is concave leveling. Distribution method and tamping tricks are two different things, and the VSTs still need a fairly level distribution the same as any basket.
I still happen to distribute via nutation with my VSTs, which is working out just fine. Method of distribution depends more on the grinder than the basket. I've been nutating with the K10 and the K3T, seems to work out just fine.
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