Posted Thu Oct 27, 2011, 1:59pm Subject: Re: Anyone give up on their VST baskets and revert back to their old ones? Why?
TheMadTamper Said:
Also available from VST: Ridgeless baskets! Yay, now that I worked out a system and modified my springs to make ridges easy, they have ridgeless (thanks, Vince!) Single baskets are also available now, as well as a 20g basket that sits between the 18 and the 22.
Yep, it seldom pays to be an early adopter. The VST price on the Pullman Barista will save you some $$ over bringing one in directly although I disagree about the "perfect fit" line. Might be true if you are buying from the latest run of baskets but if you've got the larger early ones it will be sloppy.
Received my Checkerboard Pullman a few days ago & I have no regrets about buying direct. It is a perfect fit in my tightest VST basket with no binding & works well in my other slightly larger baskets. Since this tamper base is several 10ths larger then the VST +.1 I'd still be looking at a ring of grounds around the sides with the VST Pullman. As for there being nothing special about the Pullman check the sizing of your RB tamper base with digital calipers when it arrives. Unless Reg has recently tightened up his quality control they can be pretty sloppy compared to what was actually ordered.
Posted Fri Oct 28, 2011, 8:00am Subject: Re: Anyone give up on their VST baskets and revert back to their old ones? Why?
JVBorella Said:
Yep, it seldom pays to be an early adopter. The VST price on the Pullman Barista will save you some $$ over bringing one in directly although I disagree about the "perfect fit" line. Might be true if you are buying from the latest run of baskets but if you've got the larger early ones it will be sloppy.
Received my Checkerboard Pullman a few days ago & I have no regrets about buying direct. It is a perfect fit in my tightest VST basket with no binding & works well in my other slightly larger baskets. Since this tamper base is several 10ths larger then the VST +.1 I'd still be looking at a ring of grounds around the sides with the VST Pullman. As for there being nothing special about the Pullman check the sizing of your RB tamper base with digital calipers when it arrives. Unless Reg has recently tightened up his quality control they can be pretty sloppy compared to what was actually ordered.
My Reg haven't arrived yet, but my VST Pullman arrived yesterday. So far I like it quite a bit. Far as I can tell there's no difference between it and the regular Pullman Argent Silver tamper with lack acetal inlay. I have no idea if there's anything VST special about it at all other than the custom VST logo (on the reverse side from the Pullman logo) (I'll ask Vince at some point) but I doubt it. Still it was a nice easy way to import a Pullman in the color I'd have bought anyway...
As for the perfect fit line, Vince's official word is that the 58.3 -.0 +.1 is the final word. Even after I pointed Vince to this thread, he read your comments, what Greg told you, followed the HB-thread, he's still quite insistent that 58.3 -.0 +.1 is the official spec. I don't know why, especially since Greg is the one that told you otherwise, and Greg is the one making his tampers. But obviously he must have his reasons. Vince's information to me was:
58.7 +/- 0.2 is the nominal spec, but actual measurements are slightly tighter than that. 58.4 is the max size recommended, and we suggest the tamper be called out at 58.3 -0.0 +0.1 in order to give the tamper vendor some room.
I'd say Greg is probably the ONLY tamper maker who can get in as close a tolerance as you're looking for thus the extra "head room", but why the official VST tamper holds to this spec since it's made by Greg, I don't know.
I ordered some of the newer run baskets as well (a 15g which I regretted not buying before for denser lighter S.Os, a 7g in case I want to play with singles without much grind adjustment, and a 20g (not shipped yet.) In the 7 and 15, though the fit doesn't seem any looser or tighter than my originals (mine were the second batch that shipped in late June, not the first May/early June batch.) I went for all ridged baskets since my main 18g ones are already ridged, it's just easiest to standardize. It's no big deal now that I have the lighter PF spring in my new wood handled PF. The ridges were murder on the heavy LM PF springs but the generic thin PF spring lets me pop even the ridged baskets out with my thumb. The tamper also fits ALL of my old baskets except the LM doubles (which always gave me tamper trouble) so I'm good. Maybe another .2mm would have made it tighter, but I'm not sure how much difference getting THAT close would make. If Greg didn't throw a fit when Vince ordered them at .4mm, I'm not too worried ;)
Fit aside, I have to say I'm very impressed with the quality of the Pullman. The feel of the handle is great...very smooth, great aesthetics, and it's the first "tall" type tamper that I get a level tamp with (Reg tall, Espro, Reg Radical, etc, etc) I always tamp at an angle.) It cradles nicely in my hands and the rubber is a nice touch. I imagine I'll periodically switch between the Pullman and my Reg short (for finger tamping.) I tend to tamp harder, thus grind coarser with the Pullman than my Reg short. And as much as I thought Andy was nuts, and I'll have to give it some more time to be sure, but I DO think the better fit tamper is making a difference in the flow. I love bottom heavy wood handled tampers, but for the cost of a Pullman I wanted to get the anodized for longevity. And because the varnish always peels on me at the rough bottom, I got an anodized handle (and a spare bubinga) from Reg too.
I'll give the Reg and the Pullman a bottom-to-bottom lineup to see how exact they are (I don't have digital calipers around for the comparison.)
One question for you on your Pullman: The instructions imply there are 3 spacers for a total of 4 heights. The bag has only two spacers, but there's a spacer-looking ring already on the tamper which appears to not actually come off. Did you get a silver ring on the bottom of your handle that doesn't come off? And if so, did you get 2 or 3 spacers in your bag?
Posted Fri Oct 28, 2011, 10:42am Subject: Re: Anyone give up on their VST baskets and revert back to their old ones? Why?
No spacers with my tamper as I bought the Nexus version. I wanted more wood, no rubber. I have 4 wood handle tampers & haven't had any problems with the finishes lifting.
As to the "perfect size" base being 58.3-.4mm one of my VST baskets is close to 58.9mm. Do you really think that a 58.4mm base will give a perfect fit? One size recommendation makes life easier for Vince. Remember that I bought this tamper to use in a variety of baskets & to be honest I haven't used the VSTs much lately as they aren't my favorite baskets.
Posted Fri Oct 28, 2011, 11:33am Subject: Re: Anyone give up on their VST baskets and revert back to their old ones? Why?
JVBorella Said:
No spacers with my tamper as I bought the Nexus version. I wanted more wood, no rubber. I have 4 wood handle tampers & haven't had any problems with the finishes lifting.
Ahh, I'd just assumed it was the Barista. I fear wearing out the rubber eventually, but I have to say it has a great amount of give to it and feels great to tamp on. With it it makes me want to tamp with a regular grip instead of the "finger tamp" I've adopted while using the Reg short.
Pullman oils his wood instead of varnishing it and shows a picture of a Reg tamper peeling in exactly the same way as mine, as the reason for why. I suspect the issue is more severe on the Reg short hourglass shaped ones in Bubinga. The wood seems to be extremely rough in the very tight taper area at the bottom, which made it easy for the varnish to have weak points. Seems to be the nature of the wood at such a tight curve, and possibly the maple wouldn't have that issue. On my short Reg, the bottom area below the taper is 100% varnish free at this point, and quite rough. There's some flecking on the top where I put my fingers to "finger tamp" as well. But nothing like the bottom.
http://www.coffeetamper.com.au/photos/varnish-handle.jpg (Pullman says this was used lightly in a domestic kitchen for 12 months) Mine was used heavily and that entire bottom area is devoid of varnish. I do think the issue is too steep a cut for the grain of Bubinga, not so much the use of varnish itself.
In contrast I had a a Reg tall that I used for over 5 years without issue and still looks good except around the teflon insert at the top where the varnish is peeling up, probably because of getting it wet periodically over 5 years. Of course the handle could easily be sanded and revarnished or just oiled.
In any case, those checkerboards are gorgeous and if I ever got the desire to get a wood handle as an "accessory" to my Pullman Barista, it would certainly be checkerboard!
As to the "perfect size" base being 58.3-.4mm one of my VST baskets is close to 58.9mm. Do you really think that a 58.4mm base will give a perfect fit? One size recommendation makes life easier for Vince. Remember that I bought this tamper to use in a variety of baskets & to be honest I haven't used the VSTs much lately as they aren't my favorite baskets.
Yes. Actually, like you, I've found that some of my other baskets are actually larger than the VSTs. Though your 58.9mm pushes the absolute largest tolerance a VST can be. You go "lucky" :) It could easily be 58.5 too on a given batch. And I suppose that's the point...they want their spec to fit ALL VST baskets, not just "most", so they went with the smallest margin. So in my case, I have 4 from the original batch, 2 from the current batch, and will have 1 from next month's batch. Who knows what size that one will be?
Anyway, this tamper fits better than my old one with very little wiggle room, etc. It's an improvement. Maybe a 58.6 would be tighter, maybe even show results on a refractometer. But I honestly don't think VST would brand a tamper for their baskets that will show poor performance with them, or provide an official spec they don't think will show the baskets off well at taste tests, competitions etc. It's sort of a mute point without measuring extraction. If I change my mind I can always order another base directly. :)
I'd love to get Andy to try a 54.6+ and see if he notices yet another improvement on his refractors with that difference, or if you hit diminishing returns at some point of closeness. Not many of us have refractors laying around :) What I do know is Vince recommends .4, Vince sells .4, Andy's using .4, and no doubt any cafes that buy the official VST tamper (or WBC competitors who get generously supplied one) will be using .4 :) It's logical that .6 may be "better" but I'd be surprised if it showed as significant a jump in extraction ratio as from .0 to .4.
As for VST's not being your favorite, I keep meaning to drag my EPNWs out again and give them a try in comparison after what you said....but laziness usually wins...I'm using the VSTs, my sizes all grind roughly the same, my dual (or triple) PFs in use at once don't need grind adjustments...I think I'm using VST for convenience and consistency more than anything else at this point. I can't say in my use if there's any flavor advantages or disadvantages beyond what I noticed on my initial switch on the Nuevo. Of course improved consistency is a flavor advantage...so for my use it may be the best option. (In the morning rush I have 2 PFs in rotation for shots then pull out a thrid spouted PF if I'm doing a pair of Americanos or capps....so I have 3 18g baskets in use on one grinder.
Posted Fri Oct 28, 2011, 12:34pm Subject: Re: Anyone give up on their VST baskets and revert back to their old ones? Why?
TheMadTamper Said:
I'd love to get Andy to try a 54.6+ and see if he notices yet another improvement on his refractors with that difference, or if you hit diminishing returns at some point of closeness. Not many of us have refractors laying around :) What I do know is Vince recommends .4, Vince sells .4, Andy's using .4, and no doubt any cafes that buy the official VST tamper (or WBC competitors who get generously supplied one) will be using .4 :) It's logical that .6 may be "better" but I'd be surprised if it showed as significant a jump in extraction ratio as from .0 to .4.
(In the morning rush I have 2 PFs in rotation for shots then pull out a thrid spouted PF if I'm doing a pair of Americanos or capps....so I have 3 18g baskets in use on one grinder.
.6mm is only "better" for me as my baskets are on the large end of the VST scale & then some. I have no interest in buying more so the fact that the new VST runs may be smaller isn't an issue for me. I wanted a custom fit tamper & that's what I got.
Currently I have 2 bottomless p/fs that get used daily with different baskets but that may soon change. Included with the pile of used Mazzer grinders I recently picked up were 4 LM p/fs that I plan to turn into bottomless versions.
Posted Fri Oct 28, 2011, 1:10pm Subject: Re: Anyone give up on their VST baskets and revert back to their old ones? Why?
I am happy with my VST filter baskets. I too have simplified my routine, eliminated all the extra steps and follishness of compentsating for my old baskets. The best part is it's so much neater and cleaner with no squirting and spritzing all over. And lots less waste. I don't get into all the engineering and science behind the VST, but I am happy to say I do get better results, not just different, but better. In the end, the VST have added a new level of consistency to my shots.
germantownrob Senior Member Joined: 2 Dec 2007 Posts: 2,017 Location: Philadelphia Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Duetto 3, A Dead Oscar Grinder: Vario-W, Preciso w/Esatto,... Drip: Brazen Roaster: Diedrich IR-1, HT B
Posted Fri Oct 28, 2011, 1:52pm Subject: Re: Anyone give up on their VST baskets and revert back to their old ones? Why?
I have found a few blends that the VST basket does not seem to do well on or at least I prefer other baskets for them. At first I thought my roasts where off so I roasted another 12 pounds and made up the blends again and same thing yet each componate tasted the way it should for the blends. When I pulled out my old baskets low and behold there was what I was looking for. Maybe I just like sediment in these blends, they tasted to clean with the VST baskets. So far I prefer the VST for my SO's.
TonyVan Senior Member Joined: 24 May 2010 Posts: 269 Location: Pacific Northwest Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: GS/3, La Pavoni Grinder: Macap M7K, Rocky Drip: Kone
Posted Sat Oct 29, 2011, 10:05pm Subject: Re: Anyone give up on their VST baskets and revert back to their old ones? Why?
TheMadTamper Said:
One question for you on your Pullman: The instructions imply there are 3 spacers for a total of 4 heights. The bag has only two spacers, but there's a spacer-looking ring already on the tamper which appears to not actually come off. Did you get a silver ring on the bottom of your handle that doesn't come off? And if so, did you get 2 or 3 spacers in your bag?
My VST/Pullman came with one silver spacer ring installed, along with two additional spacer rings of different sizes - so three spacers plus the option no spacers equals the four promised options.
In practice the options actually number more than that since one can combine the spacers, using two or even three simultaneously. Pullman doesn't advise this: the spacer sides are each sculptured to a slightly concave profile that forms the narrowest point in the handle's "hourglass" shape, so stacking two spacers results in a tiny ridge at their junction. For me, the extra height provided by the two spacers together is well worth it, since this finally gives me a tamper that fits my hand exactly, and balances the palm and finger pressure and sensitivity just right.
Also, the rubber is surprisingly nice to have on the inner part if the base, and your fingertips get a good sense of orientation from it and touching the basket rim as the cue for evenness of the tamp. The piston surface is truly polished - significantly more so than a smoothest RB option - and so turning it on the bed has almost no resistance. It's already become my favorite tamper.
Posted Mon Oct 31, 2011, 9:28am Subject: Re: Anyone give up on their VST baskets and revert back to their old ones? Why?
TonyVan Said:
My VST/Pullman came with one silver spacer ring installed, along with two additional spacer rings of different sizes - so three spacers plus the option no spacers equals the four promised options.
In practice the options actually number more than that since one can combine the spacers, using two or even three simultaneously. Pullman doesn't advise this: the spacer sides are each sculptured to a slightly concave profile that forms the narrowest point in the handle's "hourglass" shape, so stacking two spacers results in a tiny ridge at their junction. For me, the extra height provided by the two spacers together is well worth it, since this finally gives me a tamper that fits my hand exactly, and balances the palm and finger pressure and sensitivity just right.
Does your pre-installed spacer actually come off? Mine almost seems glued on or something...no amount of squeezing with fingertips or prying with fingernails seems to budge it. And I'm not inclined to use tools on it...
Also, the rubber is surprisingly nice to have on the inner part if the base, and your fingertips get a good sense of orientation from it and touching the basket rim as the cue for evenness of the tamp. The piston surface is truly polished - significantly more so than a smoothest RB option - and so turning it on the bed has almost no resistance. It's already become my favorite tamper.
I agree on the rubber. I fear it's a potential point of early wearing on a pricy tamper, but I'm rather fond of it. It has a great "squish" when tamping and, as you say, gives good orientation. Or, perhaps less about orientation and more about the fact that you can feel by increasing resistance which side you're applying more pressure to as you tamp. I still often have to compensate it a bit after early tamp, the one side tends to flare up a little more than the other, but generally, I really like this tamper. I tamp differently than with my Reg...firmer with a traditional grip....but I really like it thus far. And you're right about the polishing, it IS smoother, however Reg's roughness is usually in terms of concentric circles, so I'm not sure that would hinder the polishing at all. And in terms of polish, even the Pullman doesn't rival the free spin you get on the ripple'd Reg tampers....there's minimal surface contact during the spin....I used to have some fun giving it a flick and watching it spin on its own for a second ;) It didn't help my coffee, but it was fun! :)
One neat note about the rubber on this....it's not rubber ON the inner part of the base. The rubber IS the inner part of the base. If you look at the closeups of the screws on Pullman's site, where the Nexus has a curved contour of metal from the piston up to the handle, the Barista cuts off the base flat at the top of the piston head, there's no curved metal heading up to the handle. Instead there's a hollow cylinder where the handle screws into the base, and the ENTIRE mass from the piston top to the handle around it is a big block of rubber in place of the metal slope of the Nexus. That's why it's so spongy and gives that tactile response...it's not a rubber coating but the whole middle of the base is a rubber block. The base also weighs less than the Nexus for that reason, giving it a balanced weight with the handle (the aluminum handle, it's still heavier than the wood handles.)
Bob_McBob Said:
Somehow a $170 tamper seems a lot more ridiculous to me than a $29 portafilter basket.
Quite so, but the $170 isn't VST's price on the tamper, it's Pullmans....VST's just importing it and getting them custom logo'd. As John pointed out, $170 + $10 shipping through VST is actually a little cheaper than importing it from Oz yourself, believe it or not... :) Pullman may well be the priciest tamper around. Yes, it's overkill for a home barista, it's designed with the durability and ergonomics of all-day cafe use in mind.
Cafe use of a pro artisan barista, that is. For your usual "high school kids at the counter" cafe, I'd go with the Espro Dillinger....mil-spec triple hard anodized pistons won't break when they get dropped on the tile floor :P
Heck, a Reg is about $100 after shipping....custom tampers aren't cheap things...and there's only a handful of makers you can get tampers made in custom .1mm sizes. 58.0mm IS too small for these baskets... Same can be said for any baskets, but since these baskets have no slope or curve to a narrow center of holes, I think it matters more on these.
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