gregpullman Senior Member Joined: 4 Jul 2002 Posts: 57 Location: Adelaide, Australia Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Expobar Minore III Grinder: Mazzer Super Jolly Roaster: Hottop B&P, redundant Gene...
Posted Wed Nov 2, 2011, 6:03pm Subject: Re: Anyone give up on their VST baskets and revert back to their old ones? Why?
Better late than never! :) OK a few responses to some of the comments here.
TheMadTamper Said:
My Reg haven't arrived yet, but my VST Pullman arrived yesterday. So far I like it quite a bit. Far as I can tell there's no difference between it and the regular Pullman Argent Silver tamper with lack acetal inlay. I have no idea if there's anything VST special about it at all other than the custom VST logo (on the reverse side from the Pullman logo) (I'll ask Vince at some point) but I doubt it. Still it was a nice easy way to import a Pullman in the color I'd have bought anyway...
As for the perfect fit line, Vince's official word is that the 58.3 -.0 +.1 is the final word. Even after I pointed Vince to this thread, he read your comments, what Greg told you, followed the HB-thread, he's still quite insistent that 58.3 -.0 +.1 is the official spec. I don't know why, especially since Greg is the one that told you otherwise, and Greg is the one making his tampers. But obviously he must have his reasons. Vince's information to me was:
58.7 +/- 0.2 is the nominal spec, but actual measurements are slightly tighter than that. 58.4 is the max size recommended, and we suggest the tamper be called out at 58.3 -0.0 +0.1 in order to give the tamper vendor some room.
I'd say Greg is probably the ONLY tamper maker who can get in as close a tolerance as you're looking for thus the extra "head room", but why the official VST tamper holds to this spec since it's made by Greg, I don't know.
Yes. Actually, like you, I've found that some of my other baskets are actually larger than the VSTs. Though your 58.9mm pushes the absolute largest tolerance a VST can be. You go "lucky" :) It could easily be 58.5 too on a given batch. And I suppose that's the point...they want their spec to fit ALL VST baskets, not just "most", so they went with the smallest margin. So in my case, I have 4 from the original batch, 2 from the current batch, and will have 1 from next month's batch. Who knows what size that one will be?
The issue is that VST need to publish a specification that will work on all their baskets both now and into the foreseeable future. The internet is such that in five years time the spec will still be out there and being used and people will complain to Vince if they use a tamper made to the spec he published and it didn't fit because the diameter the baskets are made to changed over time (as unfortunately almost all of them do). The spec for their current batch of baskets is 58.7+/-0.2 and all but the first batch we saw were within this range (although the spec was slightly larger at the beginning as I recall). That means the baskets can be 58.5-58.9 and still be in spec. That might sound like a lot (and to us it's Grand Canyon-esque), but it's pretty standard fare for what we've seen from Synesso baskets over the time we've carried them (and as far as regular baskets go they're pretty good; we've seen some Rancilio baskets vary by .7mm!).
At the small end of the range, a 58.3 -0 +0.1 tamper would only just squeeze in, normally you'd want to go somewhat looser. At the large end of that range it may well have more clearance than we'd like.
In the current batch of ridgeless baskets, VST have done exceptionally well to maintain the diameters to much less than +/-0.2, but over time we may see some variation with that. In light of future risk, the spec Vince has published is the safest option so I think we should be reading the standard that a tamper so sized will be a good fit into any VST basket (much better than 58.0 which is what most places churn out), but not necessarily a perfect fit in every VST basket ever manufactured. As such, a better fit may be possible in any specific case from a tamper sized differently to the official standard, so the best results will always come when a tamper is made to fit a given basket.
TheMadTamper Said:
I ordered some of the newer run baskets as well (a 15g which I regretted not buying before for denser lighter S.Os, a 7g in case I want to play with singles without much grind adjustment, and a 20g (not shipped yet.) In the 7 and 15, though the fit doesn't seem any looser or tighter than my originals (mine were the second batch that shipped in late June, not the first May/early June batch.) I went for all ridged baskets since my main 18g ones are already ridged, it's just easiest to standardize. It's no big deal now that I have the lighter PF spring in my new wood handled PF. The ridges were murder on the heavy LM PF springs but the generic thin PF spring lets me pop even the ridged baskets out with my thumb. The tamper also fits ALL of my old baskets except the LM doubles (which always gave me tamper trouble) so I'm good. Maybe another .2mm would have made it tighter, but I'm not sure how much difference getting THAT close would make. If Greg didn't throw a fit when Vince ordered them at .4mm, I'm not too worried ;)
Nope hissy fits were definitely off the agenda! :) While we provide sizing advice, at the end of the day we make them to whatever spec the customer wants.
TheMadTamper Said:
One question for you on your Pullman: The instructions imply there are 3 spacers for a total of 4 heights. The bag has only two spacers, but there's a spacer-looking ring already on the tamper which appears to not actually come off. Did you get a silver ring on the bottom of your handle that doesn't come off? And if so, did you get 2 or 3 spacers in your bag?
I think Vince has already had a discussion with you about this. There are indeed three spacers and the tamper comes with the middle one installed. Unfortunately your spacer has gotten stuck on the threadlocker used to hold the screw into the handle and I apologise for this. This event has happened very very rarely for us but unfortunately it happened with a few of these VST ones. There were some logistical issues relating to the dispatch of the order which I won't go into here which may have contributed, but another possibility is that if there was any liquid threadlocker left in the handle then the extended exposure to an external low pressure atmosphere during air freight to the USA could well have sucked it out. Vince can sort this out for you but the issues at this end we identified relating to the cause of this have been noted to avoid a reoccurrence in the next order.
TheMadTamper Said:
Ahh, I'd just assumed it was the Barista. I fear wearing out the rubber eventually, but I have to say it has a great amount of give to it and feels great to tamp on. With it it makes me want to tamp with a regular grip instead of the "finger tamp" I've adopted while using the Reg short.
I agree on the rubber. I fear it's a potential point of early wearing on a pricy tamper, but I'm rather fond of it. It has a great "squish" when tamping and, as you say, gives good orientation.
I don't think rubber wear is too much to worry about. The very first two Baristas we made went to Epic Espresso in Western Australia in mid 2008, prior to their official release. They tend to make at least several hundred coffees per week day with these tampers (they have two so let's say 250 tamps per day per tamper). That means each tamper's probably tamped about 180,000 coffees since then. They're still on their first set of tampers and the rubber's still working fine with no reports of collapse, wear or sogginess. That said, if you did find it wore out at any point, a replacement rubber insert would probably cost you $10.
TheMadTamper Said:
It's logical that .6 may be "better" but I'd be surprised if it showed as significant a jump in extraction ratio as from .0 to .4.
Correct. I'm yet to do refractometer tests myself but peripheral channelling is obviously much more likely with a loose tamper than a snug tamper. The edges are always favourite spots for water to start extracting (ever noticed bottomless portafilter videos often show the extraction beginning at the edges?) so the more of the edge you can tamp the better.
TonyVan Said:
In practice the options actually number more than that since one can combine the spacers, using two or even three simultaneously. Pullman doesn't advise this: the spacer sides are each sculptured to a slightly concave profile that forms the narrowest point in the handle's "hourglass" shape, so stacking two spacers results in a tiny ridge at their junction. For me, the extra height provided by the two spacers together is well worth it, since this finally gives me a tamper that fits my hand exactly, and balances the palm and finger pressure and sensitivity just right.
Also, the rubber is surprisingly nice to have on the inner part if the base, and your fingertips get a good sense of orientation from it and touching the basket rim as the cue for evenness of the tamp. The piston surface is truly polished - significantly more so than a smoothest RB option - and so turning it on the bed has almost no resistance. It's already become my favorite tamper.
One neat note about the rubber on this....it's not rubber ON the inner part of the base. The rubber IS the inner part of the base. If you look at the closeups of the screws on Pullman's site, where the Nexus has a curved contour of metal from the piston up to the handle, the Barista cuts off the base flat at the top of the piston head, there's no curved metal heading up to the handle. Instead there's a hollow cylinder where the handle screws into the base, and the ENTIRE mass from the piston top to the handle around it is a big block of rubber in place of the metal slope of the Nexus. That's why it's so spongy and gives that tactile response...it's not a rubber coating but the whole middle of the base is a rubber block. The base also weighs less than the Nexus for that reason, giving it a balanced weight with the handle (the aluminum handle, it's still heavier than the wood handles.)
<sigh> Thanks for mentioning all that. Unfortunately photos and descriptions can only do so much in trying to describe the engineering that's gone on behind the design of the Barista. It was by no means a slap-dash job (as anyone who followed its development will remember), but many of the features and fine details are so integrated into the end product that they aren't obvious until you pick one up and start to use it (by which time you've already taken the plunge and bought it!). The depth and hardness of the rubber was chosen to provide sufficient suspension to reduce finger fatigue and ensure a progressive increase in feedback pressure during tamping (but not so much to introduce sogginess and destroy all feedback). You're right that a far simpler (and cheaper) option would have been to leave the base much like the Nexus and apply a thin rubber skin over the top of the base. Unfortunately this would have resulted in a bottom-heavy tamper (which feels clumsier than a balanced tamper), an overall heavier tamper (which isn't so good for long commercial shifts) and a very rapid transition from soft to hard finger pressure (which would provide conflicting feedback with what was going on on the other side of the tamper). None of those outcomes were acceptable for me.
I guess that's why it's always good if you have the opportunity to try a tamper, any tamper, and see how it feels first. Some people love ours, some people swear by a Reg, Espro, Torr or others. We've tried to make the Barista as adaptable as possible but ultimately everyone's different so there's no perfect product for everyone.
Bob_McBob Said:
Somehow a $170 tamper seems a lot more ridiculous to me than a $29 portafilter basket.
It's not loose change for most people, but if you're wanting something that's heavily engineered and has all the bells and whistles it tends to command a high price point. No different with luxury cars, hi-fi systems, boats etc etc etc. With any product there are a range of models, of which not every model will suit every person. With tampers there are lots of cheaper options out there which are simply a base, a screw and a handle in one shape or another. The Barista is different in that it's a scooped base, a rubber insert, a thick stainless steel screw, three stainless steel spacers, then the handle and an insert. It was never intended to compete with $100 tampers - it was designed first and foremost to a specification, and the price was arrived on subsequently based on the cost of manufacturing 100% of the product in Australia to that specification. Perhaps the comments of the other guys demonstrate why the price, for some at least, is justified.
Thanks for the tremendous response, Greg, it's nice to see you in this thread! I believe you may be the first person who has me matched for long winded responses on the boards...the mods heads must be spinning :) Very surprising from a vendor!
Nope hissy fits were definitely off the agenda! :) While we provide sizing advice, at the end of the day we make them to whatever spec the customer wants.
A nice, diplomatic answer ;) Certainly a .6mm tamper and a perfect fit would be nice....but I'd rather, as you said, error with it too small by a hair than too big by a hair for all my baskets, present and future! There's a little play with the .4mm (at least in my early run baskets), a little bit of grinds can get caught between it and the basket, but generally it's a nice enough fit for me to not worry, and I definitely get nice pours out of it that way.
I think Vince has already had a discussion with you about this. There are indeed three spacers and the tamper comes with the middle one installed. Unfortunately your spacer has gotten stuck on the threadlocker used to hold the screw into the handle and I apologise for this. This event has happened very very rarely for us but unfortunately it happened with a few of these VST ones. There were some logistical issues relating to the dispatch of the order which I won't go into here which may have contributed, but another possibility is that if there was any liquid threadlocker left in the handle then the extended exposure to an external low pressure atmosphere during air freight to the USA could well have sucked it out. Vince can sort this out for you but the issues at this end we identified relating to the cause of this have been noted to avoid a reoccurrence in the next order.
Yes, I was quite surprised to see an email from Vince before I even contacted him about it! (Kudos once again to Vince for exceptional service and support...now including mind reading and anticipatory support! ;), and to you for posting such a lengthy and informative reply here! We always love seeing vendors join us in discussion, especially vendors of custom gear. It's always nicer buying from someone you can have a conversation with than a faceless warehouse!)
Vince is indeed taking care of the issue, sending a new handle and spacers and a return label for the old one, and offered bonus baskets for my trouble. For those hesitating about buying one based on this, Vince said he went through his entire inventory and checked all the handles, so this definitely shouldn't affect anyone else. I got the lucky one (and averted at least one other stuck handle that Vince found from ending up in a customer's hands. That one wasn't as permanently stuck as mine.) Fantastic service from VST, both in the case of my tamper and Dana's bowed basket!
The good news is I'm not crazy. I thought at first that maybe I read wrong and there were only two spacers and that the third isn't so much a spacer but a glued decorative ring, then I thought maybe the spacers screw on and I didn't realize it... Leaky Loctite would have been my last guess, somewhere next to "it was screwed on by a giant hamster" :)
I don't think rubber wear is too much to worry about. The very first two Baristas we made went to Epic Espresso in Western Australia in mid 2008, prior to their official release. They tend to make at least several hundred coffees per week day with these tampers (they have two so let's say 250 tamps per day per tamper). That means each tamper's probably tamped about 180,000 coffees since then. They're still on their first set of tampers and the rubber's still working fine with no reports of collapse, wear or sogginess. That said, if you did find it wore out at any point, a replacement rubber insert would probably cost you $10.
Great to know, and while I'd love to churn out 250 tamps a day, I'll settle for my dozen or so. I'm glad it's that durable, and it's fantastic to know replacements are available! That's something I'd wondered about and is the sort of thing I'd probably buy as a spare in 5 years time or so. Plus the small fortune in AU-US shipping, of course....
Correct. I'm yet to do refractometer tests myself but peripheral channelling is obviously much more likely with a loose tamper than a snug tamper. The edges are always favourite spots for water to start extracting (ever noticed bottomless portafilter videos often show the extraction beginning at the edges?) so the more of the edge you can tamp the better.
I do expect it has a lot to do with the basket itself too. The VSTs are probably more sensitive than most because of that straight down wall (I'm not a hydro-physicist, but it makes sense.) At this point, "perfect is better" but any measurement that Vince is comfortable with as showing off the baskets properly, I'll trust. I'm sure he's done his testing (and he knows more about testing coffee with a refractometer than probably anyone else....) His testing would be far more thorough than mine... :) Though if I ever feel like adding a piston head to my mix...it'll be that .6. Just for paranoia's sake :)
<sigh> Thanks for mentioning all that. Unfortunately photos and descriptions can only do so much in trying to describe the engineering that's gone on behind the design of the Barista. It was by no means a slap-dash job (as anyone who followed its development will remember), but many of the features and fine details are so integrated into the end product that they aren't obvious until you pick one up and start to use it (by which time you've already taken the plunge and bought it!). The depth and hardness of the rubber was chosen to provide sufficient suspension to reduce finger fatigue and ensure a progressive increase in feedback pressure during tamping (but not so much to introduce sogginess and destroy all feedback). You're right that a far simpler (and cheaper) option would have been to leave the base much like the Nexus and apply a thin rubber skin over the top of the base. Unfortunately this would have resulted in a bottom-heavy tamper (which feels clumsier than a balanced tamper), an overall heavier tamper (which isn't so good for long commercial shifts) and a very rapid transition from soft to hard finger pressure (which would provide conflicting feedback with what was going on on the other side of the tamper). None of those outcomes were acceptable for me.
No doubt that applies to any well engineered product. There's always that fine touch that makes it "better" than the equally (or better) specced product. It's always nice to hear about engineering, but always difficult to separate real design from fluff in marketing materials. I can say I really like that rubber, a lot more than I THOUGHT I would like that rubber. That more than anything else has made me gravitate to this as my favorite. The feedback from that rubber is fantastic. I end up tamping very level and even when it's not QUITE level, it's only very slightly off, and that only in the morning rush when I'm scrambling to tamp between stopping the previous pour. That rubber is, I think the core reason. The feedback replaces a lot of eyeballing or finger feeling I normally do (though there's still a fair amount finger feeling, just to check.) It took a lot of playing to figure out WHY the rubber had such a good feel until I double checked that picture and realized it wasn't just a coating but was the bulk of the body! That's a huge difference, that, IMO, isn't well highlighted on the website. It appears to be a "rubberized tamper" instead of "a rubber tamper" :)
I guess that's why it's always good if you have the opportunity to try a tamper, any tamper, and see how it feels first. Some people love ours, some people swear by a Reg, Espro, Torr or others. We've tried to make the Barista as adaptable as possible but ultimately everyone's different so there's no perfect product for everyone.
Sadly, short of SCAA, there's few places to try all these exotic tampers in person. And even then, until you really USE it in your routine, it's impossible to evaluate a tamper. I often try "blind tamping" on a mat or tamp stand to get a feel of the tamper...but it's just not the right feel compared to tamping real coffee. I don't thing there's any genuine way to get a feel for it without owning it (or getting a chance to use it for an extended time with real coffee.) I still have a soft spot for Reg's tampers....not his tall so much as his short ones which lend to a "fingertip tamping" technique for light tamping that I find impossible on any other tamper. And I started with a Reg many years ago. But I admit, yours may be my new favorite...or at a minimum...an equal. (That rubber plays a big part in it.)
In truth though I think it's two different types of products. There's a number of very nice tampers out there from makers big and small. But when talking about fractional size tampers, there's really only a handful of custom makers out there to begin with. You, Reg, Les, I think Jens (Torr) does, but if they do they don't ship it to the US AFAIK. A few others will do it on special request. But there's not many competitors in the custom size race, so it narrows the field (and the price range) considerably.
It's not loose change for most people, but if you're wanting something that's heavily engineered and has all the bells and whistles it tends to command a high price point. No different with luxury cars, hi-fi systems, boats etc etc etc. With any product there are a range of models, of which not every model will suit every person. With tampers there are lots of cheaper options out there which are simply a base, a screw and a handle in one shape or another. The Barista is different in that it's a scooped base, a rubber insert, a thick stainless steel screw, three stainless steel spacers, then the handle and an insert. It was never intended to compete with $100 tampers - it was designed first and foremost to a specification, and the price was arrived on subsequently based on the cost of manufacturing 100% of the product in Australia to that specification. Perhaps the comments of the other guys demonstrate why the price, for some at least, is justified.
There's sort of an irony to compare it against what was previously considered absurdly high luxury at $100 and say it wasn't meant to compete with such low cost options :) Reg, Torr, etc already represent the very high end....most people are using something that cost $60 or less, sometimes much less, and are, honestly great quality (some of the stuff EPNW, 1st line, etc are selling are really very nice, especially at their price, and I'd be kidding myself if I were to say that what you sell is something other than sheer over the top luxury :) ) so folks coming from a $20 tamper who feel a $60 one is luxury (and it is), and a Reg at near $100 is over the top (and it is)...seeing $170 is mind numbing. Obviously in a cafe, it's a "tool of the trade" and paying attention to ergonomics averts tens of thousands of dollars in RSI surgery later, but for a home barista, it's like buying a Ferrari to go to the post office :) A really, really tasty post office... Still, luxury is luxury...and the refinements are nice, and the careful attention is nice. It's a perfect partnership with VST. For some a basket is just a basket, and a tamper is just a tamper...but what both offer is really a fine line where you're paying a lot for very small batch high quality manufacture and a huge amount of R&D.
Or summarized, "you definitely get what you pay for, and you definitely pay for what you get....but at home, you don't likely need what you paid for and got. But once you get it you'll unlikely want to give it up!" Heck even in a cafe it's luxury (lots of cafes are using generic cheap tampers, much cheaper than any custom tamper) But at least there, one can justify it as ergonomically useful to prevent injury. At home, we're just gluts. :)
I started with a Reg, tried an Espro for a time (it wasn't bad at all, but I didn't like it as much), went back to a different Reg, and now yours is added to the mix. Having used only high end tampers...I don't much want to think about the mass market ones... :)
gregpullman Senior Member Joined: 4 Jul 2002 Posts: 57 Location: Adelaide, Australia Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Expobar Minore III Grinder: Mazzer Super Jolly Roaster: Hottop B&P, redundant Gene...
Posted Thu Nov 3, 2011, 10:48pm Subject: Re: Anyone give up on their VST baskets and revert back to their old ones? Why?
TheMadTamper Said:
Yes, I was quite surprised to see an email from Vince before I even contacted him about it! (Kudos once again to Vince for exceptional service and support...now including mind reading and anticipatory support! ;), and to you for posting such a lengthy and informative reply here! We always love seeing vendors join us in discussion, especially vendors of custom gear. It's always nicer buying from someone you can have a conversation with than a faceless warehouse!)
Vince is indeed taking care of the issue, sending a new handle and spacers and a return label for the old one, and offered bonus baskets for my trouble. For those hesitating about buying one based on this, Vince said he went through his entire inventory and checked all the handles, so this definitely shouldn't affect anyone else. I got the lucky one (and averted at least one other stuck handle that Vince found from ending up in a customer's hands. That one wasn't as permanently stuck as mine.) Fantastic service from VST, both in the case of my tamper and Dana's bowed basket!
When I first found out about VST's baskets I pursued Vince (probably to his frustration!) to be able to sell and distribute them in Australia, simply because so much about VST baskets shares qualities with our tampers. I think we take a pretty similar position on looking after people who are interested in our products because we've both put a lot of personal effort into developing the products in the first place.
TheMadTamper Said:
I do expect it has a lot to do with the basket itself too. The VSTs are probably more sensitive than most because of that straight down wall (I'm not a hydro-physicist, but it makes sense.)
Couldn't agree more, and we can be thankful we finally have a straight-walled basket that allows proper puck compression and even extractions!
TheMadTamper Said:
There's sort of an irony to compare it against what was previously considered absurdly high luxury at $100 and say it wasn't meant to compete with such low cost options :) Reg, Torr, etc already represent the very high end....most people are using something that cost $60 or less, sometimes much less, and are, honestly great quality (some of the stuff EPNW, 1st line, etc are selling are really very nice, especially at their price, and I'd be kidding myself if I were to say that what you sell is something other than sheer over the top luxury :) ) so folks coming from a $20 tamper who feel a $60 one is luxury (and it is), and a Reg at near $100 is over the top (and it is)...seeing $170 is mind numbing. Obviously in a cafe, it's a "tool of the trade" and paying attention to ergonomics averts tens of thousands of dollars in RSI surgery later, but for a home barista, it's like buying a Ferrari to go to the post office :) A really, really tasty post office... Still, luxury is luxury...and the refinements are nice, and the careful attention is nice. It's a perfect partnership with VST. For some a basket is just a basket, and a tamper is just a tamper...but what both offer is really a fine line where you're paying a lot for very small batch high quality manufacture and a huge amount of R&D.
Or summarized, "you definitely get what you pay for, and you definitely pay for what you get....but at home, you don't likely need what you paid for and got. But once you get it you'll unlikely want to give it up!" Heck even in a cafe it's luxury (lots of cafes are using generic cheap tampers, much cheaper than any custom tamper) But at least there, one can justify it as ergonomically useful to prevent injury. At home, we're just gluts. :)
I started with a Reg, tried an Espro for a time (it wasn't bad at all, but I didn't like it as much), went back to a different Reg, and now yours is added to the mix. Having used only high end tampers...I don't much want to think about the mass market ones... :)
I appreciate the irony, though I wasn't denigrating $100 tampers. The Pullman Nexus which jvborella got, is in fact a $100 tamper of which I'm a big fan, but is much more on a par feature for feature with the majority of tampers out there, including those mentioned above. Clearly it has its own specific differences (which for the sake of keeping this ad-free I won't go into here) but once you're past that it offers a similar solution to many other bottom-heavy, solid-based $100 tampers. The Barista is quite unique in a number of features, and a certain price becomes necessary to deliver those features and quality within an Australian (and probably most other Western) manufacturing environment.
Perhaps things are different state-side, but in Australia we have hundreds (perhaps even thousands now) of home users using a Barista tamper. So it's not just a tool for the elite high-end espresso bars; yes that was the predominant market when I was designing it, but it's had at least as much uptake from people with $500+ coffee machines as those in the commercial world because folks like yourself realise that those features DO in fact make a difference! Down here a RB sells for $130, the Barista's $160 so perhaps the lack of shock-horror at the price is because we're more used to seeing those higher prices on tampers than (from my reading of your post) over there where $100 sounds to be top of the tree.
Posted Fri Nov 4, 2011, 10:43am Subject: Re: Anyone give up on their VST baskets and revert back to their old ones? Why?
gregpullman Said:
When I first found out about VST's baskets I pursued Vince (probably to his frustration!) to be able to sell and distribute them in Australia, simply because so much about VST baskets shares qualities with our tampers. I think we take a pretty similar position on looking after people who are interested in our products because we've both put a lot of personal effort into developing the products in the first place.
LOL, the two are definitely a great match. The reaction to a $25 (now $30) basket back in May/June for a part people were used to paying $3-10 for was just as severe a reaction to tamper prices ;) But the beauty of both is all in the refinements and details!
I appreciate the irony, though I wasn't denigrating $100 tampers. The Pullman Nexus which jvborella got, is in fact a $100 tamper of which I'm a big fan, but is much more on a par feature for feature with the majority of tampers out there, including those mentioned above. Clearly it has its own specific differences (which for the sake of keeping this ad-free I won't go into here) but once you're past that it offers a similar solution to many other bottom-heavy, solid-based $100 tampers. The Barista is quite unique in a number of features, and a certain price becomes necessary to deliver those features and quality within an Australian (and probably most other Western) manufacturing environment.
Certainly, and a lot of folks on these forums appreciate Western manufacture with the majority of folks having Italian or Spanish made machines (or US made in a handful of cases), cups made in a number of European countries, etc, etc. That ups the price, but there's just a "pride of ownership" in something made by people like you who we know by name rather than "Inspected by #345200" stamped on the inside, and, honestly, better QC (irony that I'd be mentioning the QC after the Loctite incident.... ;) But that it was noticed after ONE reported incident and the entire rest of the inventory was checked by hand....that's QC beyond all others!)
Perhaps things are different state-side, but in Australia we have hundreds (perhaps even thousands now) of home users using a Barista tamper. So it's not just a tool for the elite high-end espresso bars; yes that was the predominant market when I was designing it, but it's had at least as much uptake from people with $500+ coffee machines as those in the commercial world because folks like yourself realise that those features DO in fact make a difference! Down here a RB sells for $130, the Barista's $160 so perhaps the lack of shock-horror at the price is because we're more used to seeing those higher prices on tampers than (from my reading of your post) over there where $100 sounds to be top of the tree.
Just from the time I've spent lurking the cs.au boards on occasion I get the vibe that AU has a much more vibrant coffee culture than the majority of the US. It's creeping along and growing of course, and has long been strong on the West Coast, but for the general public, the uptake has been much slower. I imagine that's a significant part of the difference. We have quite a few world class roasters and cafes, but it's still a niche thing to the masses, most of whom still believe Starbucks is the pinnacle of coffee for which all effort should be applied to duplicate. It'll change, it's visibly evolving, but it's doing so slowly . I imagine the coffee landscape here will look much the same as AU in several years. The irony there is we probably have a greater number of top tier cafes here, purely as a factor of geography....but a lesser percentage of the population is aware of it or cares. The enthusiast sub-culture though seems about equal in both hemispheres :)
I think you mention two important points in the difference though. The first is the price difference (oh the difference transit half way around a planet makes...) A $130 Reg versus a $160 Barista is a much closer comparison versus a $75-85 Reg next to the $170 Barista as it looks here. :) And since he's the local, he just has a bigger presence here for a longer time. You're gaining in popularity, recently, though, and I suspect the VST collaboration will help now that there's a domestic "importer" instead of having to self-import.
gregpullman Senior Member Joined: 4 Jul 2002 Posts: 57 Location: Adelaide, Australia Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Expobar Minore III Grinder: Mazzer Super Jolly Roaster: Hottop B&P, redundant Gene...
Posted Sat Nov 5, 2011, 5:35am Subject: Re: Anyone give up on their VST baskets and revert back to their old ones? Why?
TheMadTamper Said:
Certainly, and a lot of folks on these forums appreciate Western manufacture with the majority of folks having Italian or Spanish made machines (or US made in a handful of cases), cups made in a number of European countries, etc, etc. That ups the price, but there's just a "pride of ownership" in something made by people like you who we know by name rather than "Inspected by #345200" stamped on the inside, and, honestly, better QC (irony that I'd be mentioning the QC after the Loctite incident.... ;) But that it was noticed after ONE reported incident and the entire rest of the inventory was checked by hand....that's QC beyond all others!)
The loctite issue is indeed unfortunate. There have only been a handful of incidents where this has occurred in the three years of our manufacture of the Barista. Certainly when the tampers left here there was no sign of the problem; as it happens we had already scheduled a design change that would eliminate this issue (though that was not the primary reason for the design change), and as such we can be certain the next shipment will not suffer from this problem. That said we have no reason to believe there will be any further occurrences of this with the VST tampers currently in the field.
germantownrob Senior Member Joined: 2 Dec 2007 Posts: 2,017 Location: Philadelphia Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Duetto 3, A Dead Oscar Grinder: Vario-W, Preciso w/Esatto,... Drip: Brazen Roaster: Diedrich IR-1, HT B
Posted Sat Nov 5, 2011, 9:40am Subject: Re: Anyone give up on their VST baskets and revert back to their old ones? Why?
Grumble, grumble, all this talk on tampers has got me looking at them as well as I took the advice to get a caliper to measure my baskets. My tamper I got when I ordered my machine has always been fine, although after a few years it has some scratches and dings in the aluminum base and I would not call the tall handle a perfect fit for my hand but now with calipers I see it measures 57.4 and my smallest basket is 58.4 up to 59.1 ( my VST is 58.6) and I have a few more baskets on the way.
Posted Mon Nov 7, 2011, 9:11am Subject: Re: Anyone give up on their VST baskets and revert back to their old ones? Why?
gregpullman Said:
The loctite issue is indeed unfortunate. There have only been a handful of incidents where this has occurred in the three years of our manufacture of the Barista. Certainly when the tampers left here there was no sign of the problem; as it happens we had already scheduled a design change that would eliminate this issue (though that was not the primary reason for the design change), and as such we can be certain the next shipment will not suffer from this problem. That said we have no reason to believe there will be any further occurrences of this with the VST tampers currently in the field.
Thankfully it's turning out to be relatively little hassle....I'm just glad it happened on one ordered from Vince where a quick replacement part can be obtained from rather than waiting forever for it to come directly from you and wait to clear Customs! (I'd also ordered something from Reg...from the time he shipped it to when Customs finally got around to passing it and it finally arrived at me...from one coast to the other, it was 2.5 weeks. I don't want to think of how long things take from AU! :)
The new handle arrived in the mailbox today, so I should be all set by tonight!
Out of curiosity, what's the design change you have in the pipeline?
Posted Mon Nov 7, 2011, 7:55pm Subject: Re: Anyone give up on their VST baskets and revert back to their old ones? Why?
gregpullman Said:
I appreciate the irony, though I wasn't denigrating $100 tampers. The Pullman Nexus which jvborella got, is in fact a $100 tamper of which I'm a big fan, but is much more on a par feature for feature with the majority of tampers out there, including those mentioned above. Clearly it has its own specific differences (which for the sake of keeping this ad-free I won't go into here) but once you're past that it offers a similar solution to many other bottom-heavy, solid-based $100 tampers. The Barista is quite unique in a number of features, and a certain price becomes necessary to deliver those features and quality within an Australian (and probably most other Western) manufacturing environment.Greg
Yours was more expensive because 1) you chose the more expensive Checkerboard handle, and 2) requested custom sizing rather than a 58mm flat base, meaning you weren't eligible for the 58mm flat base discount offered on the Nexus range. Perhaps it would have been more precise to say "The Nexus is a $100$90 tamper in base configuration" but as with many other products our tampers can be optioned up from base configuration at extra cost. However my apologies for the apparent confusion there, I probably should have clarified but didn't want it to go into too much detail and make it appear as a commercial post.
To set the record straight at this point in time, the list price on our website for a Nexus tamper with a Jarrah or Acetal handle is $AU108.18 to customers outside Australia, plus shipping. We have never charged extra for custom sizing because it's part of the solution we like to offer, however we realise not everyone requires that; so we offer a $18.18 discount off the RRP on the Nexus for people who want a 58mm flat base as we can make these in much larger quantities. The net result of all this is that a 58mm flat base Nexus tamper with a Jarrah or Acetal handle sells for $AU90 for those outside Australia (when I said it was a $100 tamper I was thinking the $99 Australian pricing but you guys don't have to pay GST so it's $90 for you).
HTH, Greg
P.S. Excuse the odd decimal figures here; retail pricing is set on the 10% higher GST-inclusive price which means the GST-exclusive figures aren't round numbers.
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