gregpullman Senior Member Joined: 4 Jul 2002 Posts: 57 Location: Adelaide, Australia Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Expobar Minore III Grinder: Mazzer Super Jolly Roaster: Hottop B&P, redundant Gene...
Posted Wed Nov 9, 2011, 7:58pm Subject: Re: Anyone give up on their VST baskets and revert back to their old ones? Why?
TheMadTamper Said:
Thankfully it's turning out to be relatively little hassle....I'm just glad it happened on one ordered from Vince where a quick replacement part can be obtained from rather than waiting forever for it to come directly from you and wait to clear Customs! (I'd also ordered something from Reg...from the time he shipped it to when Customs finally got around to passing it and it finally arrived at me...from one coast to the other, it was 2.5 weeks. I don't want to think of how long things take from AU! :)
The new handle arrived in the mailbox today, so I should be all set by tonight!
Out of curiosity, what's the design change you have in the pipeline?
Glad you're all sorted. The plan is to taper and shorten the depth of the thread in the handle so the screw binds itself into the thread taper meaning a separate threadlocker step won't be necessary.
Posted Thu Nov 10, 2011, 10:26am Subject: Re: Anyone give up on their VST baskets and revert back to their old ones? Why?
gregpullman Said:
Glad you're all sorted. The plan is to taper and shorten the depth of the thread in the handle so the screw binds itself into the thread taper meaning a separate threadlocker step won't be necessary.
Thanks, now I just get to try the spacers and decide between the heights. I'm trying the tall at the moment, which surprises me. Honestly I seem to get a level tamp with medium, and tall, which is also surprising. I haven't seen what short does for my grip yet.
Sounds like a nice tweak to the design. I happen to have a strong dislike for threadlock....necessary as it may sometimes be, in the world of coffee it seems to cause more headache than help a greater percentage of the time.
gregpullman Senior Member Joined: 4 Jul 2002 Posts: 57 Location: Adelaide, Australia Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Expobar Minore III Grinder: Mazzer Super Jolly Roaster: Hottop B&P, redundant Gene...
Posted Fri Nov 11, 2011, 2:21am Subject: Re: Anyone give up on their VST baskets and revert back to their old ones? Why?
For the Barista, a locked thread is very important due to the ability to add or remove spacers. Enough thread needs to remain in both handle and base in any configuration to make it strong enough, and if the screw could move into one or the other freely this would be compromised. Threadlocker has been the way we've accomplished this so far but as mentioned we're looking at alternatives, although I'd reiterate that there have been a very small handful of cases where we've had any problems with loctite.
Anyway quite happy to discuss tampers but maybe it'd be better in a separate thread so this one can stay discussing VST baskets?
Posted Fri Nov 11, 2011, 11:36am Subject: Re: Anyone give up on their VST baskets and revert back to their old ones? Why?
gregpullman Said:
For the Barista, a locked thread is very important due to the ability to add or remove spacers. Enough thread needs to remain in both handle and base in any configuration to make it strong enough, and if the screw could move into one or the other freely this would be compromised. Threadlocker has been the way we've accomplished this so far but as mentioned we're looking at alternatives, although I'd reiterate that there have been a very small handful of cases where we've had any problems with loctite.
I doubt you have had many issues with it. My comment was referring to my dislike for loctite in MOST espresso applications (spouts, PF handles, and boiler fittings come to mind.) Not specifically tampers :) The spouts are the biggest sort of pain. Manufacturers of PFs seem to disbelieve that anyone would have a desire to use a different spout... My favorite is when they lock the spouts in the WRONG position...and use Red lock...
Anyway quite happy to discuss tampers but maybe it'd be better in a separate thread so this one can stay discussing VST baskets?
Fair enough (though since the VST tamper is an official VST product, it's still on topic. The thread had gone well into the tamper size topic before Vince even put the tamper up on the estore :) )
*Note to mods: If the mods would like to move the Pullman/VST tamper part of the topic to a different thread, feel free! We'll leave it up to your magical hands as to if it's on or off topic for a VST thread.
Posted Mon Nov 14, 2011, 9:42am Subject: Re: Anyone give up on their VST baskets and revert back to their old ones? Why?
...And the answer as to why Vince specs the tampers at 58.3 -0 +1? I pulled out my 15g basket from the current production run....the tamper fits completely snug...I don't think I'd want the tamper any bigger than that in that basket or risk binding the side. So to in this sense the 58.4 is as big as I could get to fit ALL my baskets.
Aside from this, I have to say the 15g basket saved me from what was a lousy coffee and turned it into an excellent coffee. I'd decided to try a bag of the Paradise India Sitara S.O (100% Robusta) with my latest Nuevo order. In the 18g basket it was AWFUL...I was choking it down. Way too much body was producing that classic "burnt rubber" taste that Robusta is so (in)famous for. But I got the idea to drop the dose (after all, the Italians dose a double of that stuff 12g...so why not 15 instead of 18?) and what a difference a dose makes. The 15g basket poured MUCH faster without grind adjustment than 18g was doing, despite being tuned to "not require much grind change." But as it so happens, with this bean, that turned out to not be a bad thing. I ended up with a 15g dose and a 17-18second 2oz pour (1.5 or less after the crema dissipated somewhat) at 202F, and not only did that salvage the bean from my getting close to simply throwing it away, but it actually became a bean I enjoyed drinking, and some of the tasting notes, notably the lime, became more apparent, and the rubber went away. Keeping a few basket sizes around is definitely a handy idea.
The only flaws in working with that bean are that it produces a ridiculous amount of crema, as one would expect from Robusta. Even with a spouted PF the crema was just gushing out, worse than a fresh bean on day 1 roast (this stuff is 8 days old!) and the effect of this, the appearance of the cup is....unsettling. Picture curdled milk that was sitting on the table for, oh, a week or two. The surface of the shot LOOKs like this...it's not smooth, even crema, as it cools and settles it becomes lumpy with rolling folds in it, almost like expanding foam insulation. It's quite unsettling to look upon. But it actually tastes great if you keep the doses down :) The other flaw is the terrible mess this crema leaves all over the machine and group, and the fact that (presumably) static cling to the grinds is ridiculous....it spread and stuck and clumped to every part of the grinder....something no bean has ever done on the K10, sans clumping of oily decaf.
nixter Senior Member Joined: 29 Jan 2008 Posts: 162 Location: Vancouver Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Giotto Evoluzione, Oscar Pro Grinder: Baratza Vario
Posted Mon Nov 14, 2011, 11:12am Subject: Re: Anyone give up on their VST baskets and revert back to their old ones? Why?
I bought the 18g VST a month or more ago and have used it ever since. To be completely honest with myself I'd have to say that I haven't noticed any difference in the cup. It's nice and shiny though!
TonyVan Senior Member Joined: 24 May 2010 Posts: 269 Location: Pacific Northwest Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: GS/3, La Pavoni Grinder: Macap M7K, Rocky Drip: Kone
Posted Mon Nov 14, 2011, 9:34pm Subject: Re: Anyone give up on their VST baskets and revert back to their old ones? Why?
With VST now broadening the line with ridge-less versions and adding new sizes, just the flexibility (7, 15, 18, 20 and 22g, ridged or ridge-less) is providing its own value. This is especially useful for those of us who enjoy experimenting with new coffees and dosing, providing, as they do, a consistent and understood behavior up and down such a wide range. John's post above is a great example (although his description of that Robusta crema and mess makes me wonder if it was really early-production-phase Kopi Luwak - without the actual coffee).
Also, some coffees weighed to 18g don't leave quite as much headroom in an 18g basket as I'd like, so I'm particularly looking forward to the 20g model coming in the next few weeks.
Posted Tue Nov 15, 2011, 10:01am Subject: Re: Anyone give up on their VST baskets and revert back to their old ones? Why?
TonyVan Said:
With VST now broadening the line with ridge-less versions and adding new sizes, just the flexibility (7, 15, 18, 20 and 22g, ridged or ridge-less) is providing its own value. This is especially useful for those of us who enjoy experimenting with new coffees and dosing, providing, as they do, a consistent and understood behavior up and down such a wide range. John's post above is a great example (although his description of that Robusta crema and mess makes me wonder if it was really early-production-phase Kopi Luwak - without the actual coffee).
LOL, wrong sub-continent ;) The amazing thing about that Robusta is that it was left out post-roast (shipping + sitting) for 6 days. Then frozen. Then thawed for a full day. It has now been out on the counter for 4 more days. The bag is STILL getting inflated by off-gassing!
I've often read the somewhat humorous assertion that grinder dosers are intended for the staling of grinds in Italian cafes. While that theory has been debunked many times, after playing with 100% Robusta, I'm starting to wonder if there's truth to that....that stuff NEEDS staling, and no matter what I do it WON'T stale! :) Maybe there's something to that 2 year shelf life on Italian industrial roaster packaging.... :P
Strange stuff....behaves very weird if you're used to Arabica...both in the grinder and in the group. But surprisingly worthwhile to try, especially if you LOVE deep bodied espresso...as long as you keep the doses down and the grind coarse. This week I'm going back to Redline or Classico....I don't want anything that looks like a science experiment gone wrong in a demitasse this week ;)
Also, some coffees weighed to 18g don't leave quite as much headroom in an 18g basket as I'd like, so I'm particularly looking forward to the 20g model coming in the next few weeks.
Absolutely...I've been holding off on ordering from Klatch and Fresco until sometime in December since both of them have recommended doses around 20g for the blends I want. I'm really enjoying being able to dose (almost) consistently at a similar grind (the 15 took a finer grind for the same brew time than the 18...but it was close enough to be mostly irrelevant.) I definitely understand JBorvella and Jim Schulman's notes on "what if I want an extraction rate different than the VSTs provide"....but for a tool to provide repeatability and meaningful experimentation in dose....nothing comes close IMO. I'll sacrifice the varied extraction ratios of other baskets to have meaningful comparisons between doses, gladly.
Though I wouldn't be surprised, given the expansion of the lineup, and given that they're baskets made by the "refractometer company" if we were to see an 18% basket, 20% basket (these), 14% etc someday (in the deep deep future, after the 53mm lever baskets come out.... :P ) Imagine the possibilities of being able to say "I want a 15g dose extracted at 18% and a 20g dose extracted at 20%" and pick your baskets from the shelf to do it. It would be a pricy basket menagerie to keep around....but it would be an interesting tool collection. I won't get my hopes up too high any time in the next few years though.
gregpullman Senior Member Joined: 4 Jul 2002 Posts: 57 Location: Adelaide, Australia Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Expobar Minore III Grinder: Mazzer Super Jolly Roaster: Hottop B&P, redundant Gene...
Posted Thu Dec 1, 2011, 7:23pm Subject: Re: Anyone give up on their VST baskets and revert back to their old ones? Why?
gregpullman Said:
TheMadTamper Said:
One neat note about the rubber on this....it's not rubber ON the inner part of the base. The rubber IS the inner part of the base. If you look at the closeups of the screws on Pullman's site, where the Nexus has a curved contour of metal from the piston up to the handle, the Barista cuts off the base flat at the top of the piston head, there's no curved metal heading up to the handle. Instead there's a hollow cylinder where the handle screws into the base, and the ENTIRE mass from the piston top to the handle around it is a big block of rubber in place of the metal slope of the Nexus. That's why it's so spongy and gives that tactile response...it's not a rubber coating but the whole middle of the base is a rubber block. The base also weighs less than the Nexus for that reason, giving it a balanced weight with the handle (the aluminum handle, it's still heavier than the wood handles.)
Posted October 31, 2011 link
<sigh> Thanks for mentioning all that. Unfortunately photos and descriptions can only do so much in trying to describe the engineering that's gone on behind the design of the Barista. It was by no means a slap-dash job (as anyone who followed its development will remember), but many of the features and fine details are so integrated into the end product that they aren't obvious until you pick one up and start to use it (by which time you've already taken the plunge and bought it!). The depth and hardness of the rubber was chosen to provide sufficient suspension to reduce finger fatigue and ensure a progressive increase in feedback pressure during tamping (but not so much to introduce sogginess and destroy all feedback). You're right that a far simpler (and cheaper) option would have been to leave the base much like the Nexus and apply a thin rubber skin over the top of the base. Unfortunately this would have resulted in a bottom-heavy tamper (which feels clumsier than a balanced tamper), an overall heavier tamper (which isn't so good for long commercial shifts) and a very rapid transition from soft to hard finger pressure (which would provide conflicting feedback with what was going on on the other side of the tamper). None of those outcomes were acceptable for me.
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