glcoffee Senior Member Joined: 15 Feb 2012 Posts: 67 Location: Los Angeles, CA & Taiwan Expertise: Just starting
Espresso: Izzo Alex II Grinder: Vario Drip: Hario V60
Posted Thu Mar 22, 2012, 12:07am Subject: Not sure if grinding too fine or not enough. Not getting enough crema.
I am almost to the max finest grind setting on my Vario and the shots are blonding relatively quick 10 seconds and gets very watery at about 20 seconds.
Beans I have are a espresso local roast about 3 weeks old and Redbird about one week old; all decaf.
Have been noticing a slight bitterness in my shots and a lack of crema. I changed my boiler temp to 250 (Alex II, 254 factory set) as I was trying to alleviate the bitterness I was encountering.
I store the coffee in its original bags on the counter next to my machine. Is this a bag practice? I have friends/family coming to the house randomly and freezing the coffee in anticipation of making X amount of cups is not really a viable option. I am using the factory Izzo PF double.
For now, I have a few variables that are in the mix: - Lowered broiler temp by 4degress to counter bitterness - Tamping harder and grinding finer to counter the quick shots (watery at 20 seconds)
I will try to provide photos and a video if time allows. As of now, I am changing so many variables that I am more confused then ever.
“Some day you will be old enough to start reading fairy tales again.” C.S. Lewis, The World's Last Night ------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------ I am Taiwanese.
Coffeenoobie Senior Member Joined: 11 Dec 2011 Posts: 2,313 Location: PNW Expertise: I like coffee
Espresso: N S Oscar Grinder: Vario W
Posted Thu Mar 22, 2012, 12:51pm Subject: Re: Not sure if grinding too fine or not enough. Not getting enough crema.
Lack of crema is normally stale or coarse grinds. Three week old coffee is not going to be fresh enough for espresso.
First, did you adjust your vario with the tool? Second, I find small bags of coffee with 4 double shots worth of coffee in them come to room temp pretty fast. I try to keep about 2 days worth out and the rest in the freezer. When you are getting low pull one out the night before but really I find they dry from condensation pretty fast and my house is not very warm right now. I think if the bag is dry in my damp cold house they are at room temp, if you made smaller bags I am sure they would come to temp faster. Why do you need the last half of the bag aging as fast as it can on the counter when you could slow the aging down till closer to when you want to drink it? I am sure it slows it down because I keep track of the settings on the grinder and the frozen beans grind the same as they did the day I froze them. Granted I am not storing beans for months. Just days/weeks. I am using those zip locks you can suck the air out of.
Coffeenoobie
Buying advice: GRINDER GRINDER GRINDER. Don't cheap out on the grinder. My coffee treasure map... Click Here (maps.google.com)
emradguy Senior Member Joined: 31 Mar 2011 Posts: 1,692 Location: Houston Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: Izzo Alex Duetto II Grinder: MacapM4T, Macap M4, OE Lido,... Drip: Espro press; Aeropress Roaster: internet
Posted Thu Mar 22, 2012, 3:36pm Subject: Re: Not sure if grinding too fine or not enough. Not getting enough crema.
caffeinated/decaf has absolutely nothing to do with it.
the OP posted that he has used both 3 week old coffee AND one week old coffee. Certainly, the one week old coffee (Red Bird) should be perfectly fine. The 3 week old coffee ought to give him a mediocre shot, not what he's describing.
It does sound like your grinder is not calibrated properly. Or the water temp at the group is way off. I've never used a Hx machine, so I don't know how a boiler temp of 250 translates at the group. If your Alex II is actually a Duetto and your referring top your group boiler being 250, then you've got a problem...but I doubt this is the case. Do you have a friend who maybe will let you borrow a grinder for a day or two?
Thank you, this is a relatively new setup (1month old, machine and grinder was pruchased new) and I am new to brewing. When I first received my machine, CGG gave me a bag of dark roast beans. I tried it and remember it had a lot of crema and tasted very well. But then again, it was my first time brewing at home so I could be over projecting its qualities.
I have tried weighing my dose, but found that it further complicated things. Based on another thread and its recommended dose weight, my shots were being pulled even faster (15 seconds) with no crema at all. I am still puzzled in this area and have decided not to add an additional variable to the mix, for now. Figure I should build a solid foundation before I start to finess my process.
Coffeenoobie Said:
Lack of crema is normally stale or coarse grinds. Three week old coffee is not going to be fresh enough for espresso.
First, did you adjust your vario with the tool? Second, I find small bags of coffee with 4 double shots worth of coffee in them come to room temp pretty fast. I try to keep about 2 days worth out and the rest in the freezer. When you are getting low pull one out the night before but really I find they dry from condensation pretty fast and my house is not very warm right now. I think if the bag is dry in my damp cold house they are at room temp, if you made smaller bags I am sure they would come to temp faster. Why do you need the last half of the bag aging as fast as it can on the counter when you could slow the aging down till closer to when you want to drink it? I am sure it slows it down because I keep track of the settings on the grinder and the frozen beans grind the same as they did the day I froze them. Granted I am not storing beans for months. Just days/weeks. I am using those zip locks you can suck the air out of.
I have not adjusted the Vario in any way other than the dials. I assumed everything was factory dialed in and it did seem to work relatively well at first. As of yesterday, I was just noticing the lack of crema in my shots compared to my shots prior. To alleviate the quick pull and bitterness, I have adjusted the broiler temp, set the Vario to grind finer and have tamped harder.
emradguy Said:
caffeinated/decaf has absolutely nothing to do with it.
the OP posted that he has used both 3 week old coffee AND one week old coffee. Certainly, the one week old coffee (Red Bird) should be perfectly fine. The 3 week old coffee ought to give him a mediocre shot, not what he's describing.
It does sound like your grinder is not calibrated properly. Or the water temp at the group is way off. I've never used a Hx machine, so I don't know how a boiler temp of 250 translates at the group. If your Alex II is actually a Duetto and your referring top your group boiler being 250, then you've got a problem...but I doubt this is the case. Do you have a friend who maybe will let you borrow a grinder for a day or two?
On the Alex II, the PID controls temp at the broiler and not group head. Factory was set as 254 and to see if I can counter bitterness, I have adjusted the temp to 250 (-4) at the broiler. I have not yet installed my digital thermometer for the group head so I can not precisely say what the brewing temp is. I figure if 254 was too high, I would try a few degrees cooler.
I am going to set everything back to factory settings tonight and take a few pictures if time allows.
“Some day you will be old enough to start reading fairy tales again.” C.S. Lewis, The World's Last Night ------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------ I am Taiwanese.
MARIOBARBA Senior Member Joined: 26 Sep 2011 Posts: 126 Location: MONTREAL CANADA Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Ascaso DUO Prof TRONIC Grinder: Baratza Vario
Posted Thu Mar 22, 2012, 4:57pm Subject: Re: Not sure if grinding too fine or not enough. Not getting enough crema.
Temp should have little to no effect on flow rate. Dose and grind are the two parameters that affect flow rate (tamping has little to no effect either). Like someone mentioned if 254F is the temp of your brew boiler (not sure if your machine is HX or DB)in the case of DB, that is way too hot. You are essentially pushing steam at the coffee, not water. As for the grinder, you may have to re-calibrate the Vario for espresso as per Baratza's website (http://www.baratza.com/troubleshooting/), this is fairly common and not difficult.
glcoffee Senior Member Joined: 15 Feb 2012 Posts: 67 Location: Los Angeles, CA & Taiwan Expertise: Just starting
Espresso: Izzo Alex II Grinder: Vario Drip: Hario V60
Posted Fri Mar 23, 2012, 12:27am Subject: Re: Not sure if grinding too fine or not enough. Not getting enough crema.
First, I want to apologize about the inconsistency in photos as this was a one man show trying to juggle a few things at once.
Machine: Alex II PID (non-Duetto) Grinder: Vario Bean: One week old Red Bird Espresso blend decaf PF: Factory IZZO double (I believe its an 18g basket)
Both machine and my brewing expertise is less than a month old. I would really appreciate if someone can critique my process and settings.
Pulled four double shots tonight with various settings. Broiler temp changed to 253 via the PID on my ALEX II (non-Duetto).
Shot #4 extracted the most crema, but I am almost max to the finest setting on my Vario. This shot tasted rather acidic to me.
Grinder question: A few questions for Vario owners, how often do you need to adjust the grinder? I am just about on my 4th lb. of coffee. From tonight's trials, it does seem that my Vario needs to be re-calibrated.
Tamping question: When I level off my PF and tamp, my tamper falls below the rim of the PF? And this is before I am applying to what equates to a 30lb pressure. How do you balance this when you level off the PF and try to tamp evenly to the rim of the PF?
Last question: How can I make a better espresso shot? :)
Appreciate all the replies!
“Some day you will be old enough to start reading fairy tales again.” C.S. Lewis, The World's Last Night ------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------ I am Taiwanese.
Posted Fri Mar 23, 2012, 6:30am Subject: Re: Not sure if grinding too fine or not enough. Not getting enough crema.
are you at 9 bar while pulling your shot?if not you may want to adjust it. I think factory setting for the alex 2 is 10 or 10.5 - higher the bar = more acidic shot and harder to dial in. The vario does have some issues keeping grind setting and you will find you'll have to adjust and calabrate grind frequently.I'm on my 3rd vario (2 replacements) the last replacement has the face plate used on the vario W and seems to be holding up better as far as holding grind setting. Just some thoughts of what might be your problem.
glcoffee Senior Member Joined: 15 Feb 2012 Posts: 67 Location: Los Angeles, CA & Taiwan Expertise: Just starting
Espresso: Izzo Alex II Grinder: Vario Drip: Hario V60
Posted Fri Mar 23, 2012, 9:40am Subject: Re: Not sure if grinding too fine or not enough. Not getting enough crema.
kboom1 Said:
are you at 9 bar while pulling your shot?if not you may want to adjust it. I think factory setting for the alex 2 is 10 or 10.5 - higher the bar = more acidic shot and harder to dial in. The vario does have some issues keeping grind setting and you will find you'll have to adjust and calabrate grind frequently.I'm on my 3rd vario (2 replacements) the last replacement has the face plate used on the vario W and seems to be holding up better as far as holding grind setting. Just some thoughts of what might be your problem.
To be honest, I did not check how many bars was being measured while the shot was pulled. I will definitely look into this.
As for the Vario, I barely used 4lbs of beans and I did not expect calibration issues from a $400 grinder. Maybe I am expecting too much? I will try to recalibrate this the grinder over the weekend. At what point would I consider a replacement or is recalibration the joys of ownership?
“Some day you will be old enough to start reading fairy tales again.” C.S. Lewis, The World's Last Night ------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------ I am Taiwanese.
Coffeenoobie Senior Member Joined: 11 Dec 2011 Posts: 2,313 Location: PNW Expertise: I like coffee
Espresso: N S Oscar Grinder: Vario W
Posted Fri Mar 23, 2012, 12:57pm Subject: Re: Not sure if grinding too fine or not enough. Not getting enough crema.
My vario seems to be holding steady but it is not even broken in good yet. All adjustments have been really tiny tweaks after I set it correctly with the tool.
Coffeenoobie
Buying advice: GRINDER GRINDER GRINDER. Don't cheap out on the grinder. My coffee treasure map... Click Here (maps.google.com)
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