JDHarding Senior Member Joined: 31 Aug 2007 Posts: 1,099 Location: WA, USA Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Ascaso Steel Pro PID Grinder: Nuova Simonelli MDX,... Vac Pot: None Drip: Hario v60 Roaster: Behmor, Fresh Roast
Posted Wed Apr 18, 2012, 5:27pm Subject: Re: What am I doing wrong with my Redbird?
So I played with grind and temp a little more. 208F PID setting, which oddly enough showed up as 196-200F in the group when I used the styrofoam cup. Temp jumps around so much on this machine that it's impossible to really know what the group temp actually is without buying an instant thermometer, if instant ones exist.
Anyway, 20grams, 208F PID, and it STILL tastes funny. However, it tasted less funny this time. But it pulled quickly. I tried 2 different grind settings, and both pulled quickly. 2oz at 18 and 22 seconds. Both tasted less sour/bitter, which is sort of odd. I'm working backwards and it's tasting less sour/bitter.
So I decided to try my Dillon's Blend instead, 'cause I wanted a nice milk drink. 20g at 208F PID. It came out a tad fast, 2oz at 22 seconds, but it taste pretty nice. Very strong, very thick, very chocolatey and roast-flavored. Difficult to drink because it was so intense. Put it with milk and it's amazing. So I guess the machine isn't the problem, dose and temp aren't the problem. Maybe Redbird is the problem.
I plan to keep the rest of the Redbird and maybe make milk drinks with it, and continue to tinker with it. There's gotta be a sweet spot somewhere. I think the dose might still be too high. 14 grams is most likely a better dose. That way the lemon flavors aren't so intense.
I could try making regular drip coffee with the Redbird and see how I feel about it that way. Maybe if I don't like it as a regular coffee, then I won't ever like it as espresso either? Or is that a bad theory?
D4F Senior Member Joined: 15 Mar 2012 Posts: 1,198 Location: USA Expertise: I like coffee
Espresso: Gaggia Classic PID Grinder: Preciso
Posted Wed Apr 18, 2012, 6:16pm Subject: Re: What am I doing wrong with my Redbird?
I am concerned that you can't get a stable or reproducible temperature. The styrofoam cup method may not be perfect, but with a fully warmed up machine and the same technique every time, then the temperatures should be reproducilble. Some might make the case that it is not as accurate as some other methods, but you should be able to get the same temperatures. You mentioned a 10 degree drop with a pull which from my understanding is fairly common with SBDU. Even that can be fairly minimized with practice. I can even get a temperature rise instead of fall if I add enough heat. The Gaggia is capable of that, but has a smaller boiler. Still, it only takes about 50% of the pull time, to have the heater on, to overcome 50 - 60 ml od cool water. I do not know enough about blends that specify a temperature, such as Redbird at 199 - 200, to know if they tolerate a temperature drop. If you start at 200 and end up at 190, not sure that you meet the desired temp. Also, you could start high and end low and potentially get bitter from high and sour from low.
JDHarding Senior Member Joined: 31 Aug 2007 Posts: 1,099 Location: WA, USA Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Ascaso Steel Pro PID Grinder: Nuova Simonelli MDX,... Vac Pot: None Drip: Hario v60 Roaster: Behmor, Fresh Roast
Posted Wed Apr 18, 2012, 6:31pm Subject: Re: What am I doing wrong with my Redbird?
Yeah, this temp deal is too confusing. My PID always raises the temp beyond the amount I have it set at. If it's set at 210F, the PID will heat until it hits 210, then stop, but the temp will go up to 215-220F, then slowly fall below 210F, then the PID will kick the temp on again till it hits 210F, rinse and repeat. Constant up and down action. So I can't really get an accurate grouphead reading unless I wait for the temp to hit 210F, pull water at that exact moment, and hopefully with the thermometer pre-heated, and only then will I MAYBE get a proper temp reading. It becomes too tiring trying to chase the temp around. It's better if I just set the PID at a temp, pull a shot, taste it and see how it tastes, raise/lower the temp, pull another shot, etc. I think 208F is a fairly good temp as I didn't notice too much bitterness in the Dillon's Blend shot I pulled. 208F is the current "sweet spot".
All I know is if the PID reads 200-201F, and I pull water into the styrofoam cup, all I get is 190F group temp. So 208-210F PID must be 200F group temp.
D4F Senior Member Joined: 15 Mar 2012 Posts: 1,198 Location: USA Expertise: I like coffee
Espresso: Gaggia Classic PID Grinder: Preciso
Posted Wed Apr 18, 2012, 10:28pm Subject: Re: What am I doing wrong with my Redbird?
My PID is set up to allow fairly quick warm up. To do that, I allow initial overshoot and then settling back down to set temp. It then will stay at set temp or 1 degree below, that is my oscillation, and mostly at set temp. It could again overshoot after a pull, depending on whether the PID settings favor nonoscillating damping, or speed, or somewhere in the middle.
My PID will reach set temp in about 5 minutes and that is after overshoot and settling. That temperature only means that the sensor, in its spot on the boiler is able to hold its temperature. I have looked at how long it takes the PF and group to stabilize, and that is about 20 minutes. If I just look at PID, it was stable at 5 minutes, again that is only the temperature of the PID sensor. Who knows when the water actually is stable, probably sooner than the group, but, I would have to get that water through a cooler group.
The PID, in PID mode is not capable of maintaining the boiler water or boiler temperature during a pull. Since the PID is a damped control to maintain steady state temperature it is just giving blip of power in its interval, usually 1 - 2 seconds cycles. That keeps it from overshooting if damped enough. Unfortunately, damping and stability come with slowness.
If I let my machine warm up at least 20 minutes and do a styrofoam cup test, I will basically get a reproducible result from one day to the next. If I allow 5 or more minutes after a pull, I can again get the same starting temperature. You can learn to cheat some of these times using the steam switch to blast in full power, and that will show on the PID as overtemp and it will slowly oscillate back down. Stability in the brew water and mechanism does not follow the timing shown on the PID. If you first get where you can get a reproducible temp reading, then you can learn how to cheat the time, adding heat, to get "there" more quickly. You need to get the reproducibility to know where "there" is. There is a lot about temperature in SBDU in the other thread. There is a temperature study on the Gaggia that clearly shows the need for long warm up.
Try letting the machine warm up for about 30 minutes with the PF on then remove it and promptly test the temp with the styrofoam cup. Then pull a shot and then put the PF back on and wait at least 5 minutes and repeat the temp procedure. That should be close to stable. The actual temp will have the limitations of the styrofoam method, but should be close, and reproducible. I do not find getting temps quick or particularly fun, nor do I think that they would be with better equipment. Waiting for stability is like watching paint dry or grass grow.
I am sorry if any of this is, or my approach, is offensive. Just trying to see if there is a temperature problem, and if it can be eliminated. I did read many of your other threads and it does not seem like there have been many solutions to a recurring "bitter" problem.
JDHarding Senior Member Joined: 31 Aug 2007 Posts: 1,099 Location: WA, USA Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Ascaso Steel Pro PID Grinder: Nuova Simonelli MDX,... Vac Pot: None Drip: Hario v60 Roaster: Behmor, Fresh Roast
Posted Thu Apr 19, 2012, 12:00pm Subject: Re: What am I doing wrong with my Redbird?
I pulled a 20g shot today, only 1oz this time in 25 seconds. It was pretty strong, and it tasted a bit more like chocolate and a little less like lemon.
After that I decided to try something different and made myself some manual pour-over coffee with the Redbird. Hario v60, Buono kettle, 30g coffee, 10oz water, 200F degrees, brew time around 3 mins. It's actually not bad tasting, though fairly weak flavored. I'm not sure what I did wrong with brewing it. Usually when I brew Dillon's Blend it comes out pretty strong, but this is a very mild cup. With milk it's practically invisible.
Has anyone else tried Redbird as regular coffee? Pour-over, drip, siphon, press, perculator, or some other method besides espresso?
JDHarding Senior Member Joined: 31 Aug 2007 Posts: 1,099 Location: WA, USA Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Ascaso Steel Pro PID Grinder: Nuova Simonelli MDX,... Vac Pot: None Drip: Hario v60 Roaster: Behmor, Fresh Roast
Posted Fri Apr 20, 2012, 12:42pm Subject: Re: What am I doing wrong with my Redbird?
I switched to my HX machine now that I finally found a double basket that fits it. I did the styrofoam cup/digital thermoprobe test on the grouphead and after some flushes it read 200F.
I pulled a couple shots on it. First of all, the basket can only hold 12 grams before the puck hits the dispersion screen. The first shot I pulled was too fast, 2oz in 15 seconds. The weird thing is it taste good. So I tried a second pull, 1oz in 30 seconds, and it taste really strong, and had some of that sour flavor, but was still somewhat good. I drank both, so I decided not to try a third shot. Heh. 3 doubles back to back would be a bad idea. ;)
I'll probably make some more shots in a few hours from now. I'm so close to getting this problem solved. *crosses fingers*
JDHarding Senior Member Joined: 31 Aug 2007 Posts: 1,099 Location: WA, USA Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Ascaso Steel Pro PID Grinder: Nuova Simonelli MDX,... Vac Pot: None Drip: Hario v60 Roaster: Behmor, Fresh Roast
Posted Fri Apr 20, 2012, 3:49pm Subject: Re: What am I doing wrong with my Redbird?
Update!
Pulled a couple more shots just now.
Wow, this machine is deffinately a different beast compared to my SBDU. It has tons upon tons of heat at it's command, with absolutely no cool down like my SBDU has.
So the first shot pulled fast, like 2oz in 15 seconds, the second shot pulled fast, again 2oz in 15 seconds even though I changed the grind, and the third shot pulled sorta fast, but at least I got 2oz in 22 seconds. I really need to get the OPV unstuck so I can set it to what I want it at because it's set way too high.
As for taste, the shot was so hot I think I burnt my taste buds. There was no sour in it, it was slightly bitter, but honestly it tasted like a shot of regular drip coffee. Almost like I didn't pull an espresso at all. It was weird. It was good, though. I drank the whole thing, and had no complaints this time around.
I think 12 grams at 2oz makes a very weak, watery espresso. That's the only reason I can think of why it would taste so plain.
I'll most likely keep grinding finer and finer till I can pull 1oz to 1.5oz at 25 seconds. My grinder's gonna be put through it's paces, that's for sure.
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