Posted Thu May 3, 2012, 5:15pm Subject: Basic Newbie dosing and grinding question
Finally, my CC1 + Preciso came today.
I have some Veltons (Decaf for tonight) but to get started I have some OLD decaff italian roast beans that were in my freezer. I' not really using the for drinking but to get the basics down.
I want to start off with single shots to get practice: I put 8 gms in the single basket but it's nowhere's near full and the shots are weak. Should I be using more? Would it be twice that for the double basket?
Posted Thu May 3, 2012, 5:47pm Subject: Re: Basic Newbie dosing and grinding question
Me again.
Just pulled a shot of Velton's Three Ravens. ~8gm coffee. 2 secs preinfusion, 2 secs off 16 secs on. Got 1.25 oz of beautiful espresso, no channeling. Very nice taste (though didn't blow me away - that might take more practice). I'm quite pleased with both the machine and the results I'm getting in my first hour as an espresso geek!
Thanks to everyone for all the info and advice!
PS: What does it mean if the puck is stuck up on the screen?
Coffeenoobie Senior Member Joined: 11 Dec 2011 Posts: 2,320 Location: PNW Expertise: I like coffee
Espresso: N S Oscar Grinder: Vario W
Posted Thu May 3, 2012, 9:19pm Subject: Re: Basic Newbie dosing and grinding question
Mine does that sometimes because I have my basket loose inside my naked portafilter the whole thing can stay there. I always assumed it was a combo of a fine grind, lack of head room and the suction from the release in pressure. I always back flush when that happens.
Coffeenoobie
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IMAWriter Senior Member Joined: 4 Jul 2002 Posts: 5,462 Location: Brentwood, TN Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: Nothing at the moment Grinder: Vario-W,Preciso-Esatto/KyM... Vac Pot: Adcraft SS, Yama 8 cup Drip: Brazen.Chemex, Hario, Clever... Roaster: Behmor 1600, CO/UFO combo
Posted Thu May 3, 2012, 10:15pm Subject: Re: Basic Newbie dosing and grinding question
barry, you are doing something quite brave, especially with a new machine. Pulling SINGLES! Many, including myself found that daunting, especially with a pomp machine. I found it much easier with a lever, as I can control the pressure, and "feel' what I need to do.
Also, 8 grams in a 58mm basket seems a little light of a dose. Is there more than 3mm of clearance between the top of the finished puck and the lip of the basket?
However, all my "comments' aside, if it tastes good it IS good! Sounds like your getting her tuned in great.
Velton does some great coffee. Try his signature Bonsai Espresso. I reviewed here several years ago, in the "Espresso Blends" forum.
Posted Fri May 4, 2012, 3:31am Subject: Re: Basic Newbie dosing and grinding question
IMAWriter Said:
barry, you are doing something quite brave, especially with a new machine. Pulling SINGLES! Many, including myself found that daunting, especially with a pomp machine. I found it much easier with a lever, as I can control the pressure, and "feel' what I need to do.
Also, 8 grams in a 58mm basket seems a little light of a dose. Is there more than 3mm of clearance between the top of the finished puck and the lip of the basket?
However, all my "comments' aside, if it tastes good it IS good! Sounds like your getting her tuned in great.
Velton does some great coffee. Try his signature Bonsai Espresso. I reviewed here several years ago, in the "Espresso Blends" forum.
Brave! No, just ignorant! After I posted, I read that it's really hard to pull singles. Though I do think it helped me trouble shoot using less coffee each time. I don't think I'm underdosing. When I tried to put 9 gm into the basket, it clearly was hitting the screen.
I think I figured out that I need to calibrate my Preciso. Even on the finest setting, I'm getting fast extractions and not coming close to choking the machine. I think that's part of why I'm getting no channeling (the whole puck is a path of less resistance!) Would it also explain why I'm not able to put more coffee in the basket? I'm pressing pretty hard with the tamper and I'm pretty sure it's > 30 lbs of pressure. Am I correct in thinking that with 20 second extraction times, I can pretty much conclude that the grind is too coarse? I assume that the brew pressure's about right (I the CC1 is reportedly set at 9 BAR out of the factory) so that grind size is the only variable left.
I did get the Bonsai Blend but, for me, it would have been unwise to consume caffeine in the evening. I just pulled a double shot. The extraction was too fast but I stopped it early and got 2 oz of a pretty good espresso. A teeny bit sour, but still good.
Obviously, I still have a learning curve, but this stuff is better than what I've gotten at cafes.
emradguy Senior Member Joined: 31 Mar 2011 Posts: 1,724 Location: Houston Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: Izzo Alex Duetto II Grinder: MacapM4T, Macap M4, OE Lido,... Drip: Espro press; Aeropress Roaster: internet
Posted Fri May 4, 2012, 8:30am Subject: Re: Basic Newbie dosing and grinding question
yeah, sounds like your grind isn't fine enough...see if you can grind fine enough to choke the machine, and then back it off until you're getting a longer, richer extraction.
tamp pressure should be consistent, yeah 30# is a good target to shoot for, but doesn't really matter in the long run whether your 20, 30, 40, 50, 60 or some odd number in that range. just do it the same everytime.
Also, you'll find that the grind fineness will be different whether you're using your single basket or your double. if you get a bottomless pf handle (highly recommended), you can also use a "triple" basket, and the grind variance betwen that and the double is much smaller (i.e., you can probably get away with not changing your grinder setting when switching between double and triple baskets).
Posted Fri May 4, 2012, 3:49pm Subject: Re: Basic Newbie dosing and grinding question
emradguy Said:
yeah, sounds like your grind isn't fine enough...see if you can grind fine enough to choke the machine, and then back it off until you're getting a longer, richer extraction.
tamp pressure should be consistent, yeah 30# is a good target to shoot for, but doesn't really matter in the long run whether your 20, 30, 40, 50, 60 or some odd number in that range. just do it the same everytime.
Also, you'll find that the grind fineness will be different whether you're using your single basket or your double. if you get a bottomless pf handle (highly recommended), you can also use a "triple" basket, and the grind variance betwen that and the double is much smaller (i.e., you can probably get away with not changing your grinder setting when switching between double and triple baskets).
So, I came home and did the Preciso recalibration. Surprisingly it was preset to the coarsest level not the middle level. I set it for the coarser end of the fine level (for those who have no idea what I'm talking about, there are three "windows", coarse, medium, and fine and a set screw with which you pick one of these). It seems silly that they sell a grinder intended for somewhat serious espresso brewers and preset it to be too coarse for this.
I then set the grinder on 2 or 3 (one being finest) and pulled a 9 gm single shot and got about 3/4 oz with a 24 (or so) second extraction. It was pretty good. So, the problem was definitely the grind and now I know that my grinder can go finer than what I'd want.
By the way, I do have a naked portafilter (they come free now with the CC1). It's extremely useful. Obviously the above pull was slow, but I did get one stream in the middle.
The puck is still sticking to the screen though. The basket was nowhere near overflowing before being tamped so I don't think it's overdosing. Any hints on how to fix this?
PS: I'm using singles to get the basics and make sure I'm in the ballpark as I'm running out of my throw-away coffee.
emradguy Senior Member Joined: 31 Mar 2011 Posts: 1,724 Location: Houston Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: Izzo Alex Duetto II Grinder: MacapM4T, Macap M4, OE Lido,... Drip: Espro press; Aeropress Roaster: internet
Posted Mon May 7, 2012, 7:57am Subject: Re: Basic Newbie dosing and grinding question
BarryR Said:
...pulled a 9 gm single shot and got about 3/4 oz with a 24 (or so) second extraction. It was pretty good. So, the problem was definitely the grind and now I know that my grinder can go finer than what I'd want.
sounds like you're just about there. you can micro adjust by tasting the shot as it comes out of the pf. instead of putting a cup under the pf, let the stream fall into the drip tray. have a small spoon handy and take many rapid samples from the stream. this will let you know where the end of the shot is, and what it looks like. after you determine that, you can try full shots at different doses. believe it or not, they will taste different. ditch the spoon and pull consecutive full shots with different doses, say one with 7g, and one with 9g for instance, then taste them side by side to see which you like better.
BarryR Said:
By the way, I do have a naked portafilter (they come free now with the CC1). It's extremely useful. Obviously the above pull was slow, but I did get one stream in the middle.
that's awesome! you're one step ahead of most new owners.
BarryR Said:
The puck is still sticking to the screen though. The basket was nowhere near overflowing before being tamped so I don't think it's overdosing. Any hints on how to fix this?
to really see if you're overdosing or not, you can do "the nickel test". after you tamp, place a nickel in the center of the puck, then "lock" the pf onto the group. now remove the pf and carefully take the nickel out. you should only have the slightest impression of the nickel in the puck. I also highly recommend frcn's website (www.espressomyespresso.com) and in particular, his guide to better espresso (EASY GUIDE TO BETTER ESPRESSO AT HOME). It's number 12 on the right side of the main page, under the "how-to" section. I think it's one of the best ways to trouble shoot extraction problems and fine tune technique, and refer to it occasionally just to get my own process back under control.
BarryR Said:
I'm using singles to get the basics and make sure I'm in the ballpark as I'm running out of my throw-away coffee.
despite everything above, the fact that you're using "throw-away" coffee may be your only real problem at this point. It sounds to me like you're ready to delve into the good stuff.
Posted Mon May 7, 2012, 7:07pm Subject: Re: Basic Newbie dosing and grinding question
emradguy Said:
sounds like you're just about there. you can micro adjust by tasting the shot as it comes out of the pf. instead of putting a cup under the pf, let the stream fall into the drip tray. have a small spoon handy and take many rapid samples from the stream. this will let you know where the end of the shot is, and what it looks like. after you determine that, you can try full shots at different doses. believe it or not, they will taste different. ditch the spoon and pull consecutive full shots with different doses, say one with 7g, and one with 9g for instance, then taste them side by side to see which you like better.
that's awesome! you're one step ahead of most new owners.
Yes, the free portafilter is a nice touch. Actually, I have yet to use the regular portafilter (except with the blind basket for backflushing).
to really see if you're overdosing or not, you can do "the nickel test". after you tamp, place a nickel in the center of the puck, then "lock" the pf onto the group. now remove the pf and carefully take the nickel out. you should only have the slightest impression of the nickel in the puck. I also highly recommend frcn's website (www.espressomyespresso.com) and in particular, his guide to better espresso (EASY GUIDE TO BETTER ESPRESSO AT HOME). It's number 12 on the right side of the main page, under the "how-to" section. I think it's one of the best ways to trouble shoot extraction problems and fine tune technique, and refer to it occasionally just to get my own process back under control.
Thanks. I don't think I'm overdosing because the grinds don't quite reach the top before tamping. Most of the time when the puck sticks, the grind has been too fine. I think I read the espressomyespresso stuff before my machne came but I'll check.
despite everything above, the fact that you're using "throw-away" coffee may be your only real problem at this point. It sounds to me like you're ready to delve into the good stuff.
I was only using the "throw away" coffee to practice and get close to the right grinder settings. Actually they're one year old Italian Espresso Roast Decaf (from Porto Rico in NYC). They've been in a vacuum sealed bag in the freezer since I got my Behmor just over a year ago. The espresso I made from it was actually OK (but the other stuff is better). I've been using Veltons Bonsai and Three Ravens as well as my homeroasts for tasting.
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