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Extraction question
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Discussions > Espresso > Q and A > Extraction...  
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jneff28
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Joined: 7 Apr 2007
Posts: 69
Location: Illinois
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Silvia
Grinder: Maestro, Rocky
Drip: Press, quisinart
Roaster: Intelligentsia
Posted Tue May 15, 2012, 3:48pm
Subject: Extraction question
 

Using a vario and silvano machine with Black cat 5 days off roast. took me a bit to dial in on my grinder and now I am at 12.4 sec grind time with about 8-10 sec before the shot exits portafilter. starts off really nice but after about 10 sec or 20 seconds total it really starts pouring quickly and then blondes instead of a nice steady stream all the way through. Shot is decent but the pour seems odd. Been using a local roast and the pour seems to stay at a steady rate the whole 25-28 sec. With 12.3 grind time i am just about the line on my basket but without actually measuring not sure exactly how much gram weight I have.  Any finer and I am choking the machine and any coarser it pours on through rather quickly. Anyone else with the timer vario who can give me an idea of what kind of grind time your using?
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germantownrob
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germantownrob
Joined: 2 Dec 2007
Posts: 2,141
Location: Philadelphia
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Duetto 3, A Dead Oscar
Grinder: Vario-W, Preciso w/Esatto,...
Drip: Brazen
Roaster: Diedrich IR-1, HT B
Posted Tue May 15, 2012, 4:30pm
Subject: Re: Extraction question
 

Grind time is meaning less from one bean to another as is fine/coarse setting. A tenth of a gram scale will be a big help in your dosing. You are also not mentioning what the age of your local roasters beans where, sounds like your BC just needs to be ground finer to adjust for early blonding, hard to speculate on the local rosters results with no data.
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jneff28
Senior Member


Joined: 7 Apr 2007
Posts: 69
Location: Illinois
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Silvia
Grinder: Maestro, Rocky
Drip: Press, quisinart
Roaster: Intelligentsia
Posted Tue May 15, 2012, 6:07pm
Subject: Re: Extraction question
 

not sure the local roast age--they tell me its within a week since it is delivered to the store on mondays. its is quite a bit different then the bc as far as grinder setting. I will try a little finer grind. I guess the length of time it take for the pour to actually start has more to do with dosing? so maybe a tick finer and a second or 2 off of my grind time until I get a scale.
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frcn
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frcn
Joined: 23 Dec 2001
Posts: 3,356
Location: Northern California
Expertise: Professional

Espresso: Vibiemme Domobar Double
Grinder: Mazzer Kony, Baratza...
Vac Pot: Hario, 2 Cory pots, 1 Cory...
Drip: Behmor Brazen, Bunn A10 mod...
Roaster: computer controlled Hottop,...
Posted Tue May 15, 2012, 10:43pm
Subject: Re: Extraction question
 

On my website www.EspressoMyEspresso.com, check out this article: 12 - EASY GUIDE TO BETTER ESPRESSO AT HOME. It might help.

Be aware that all things are interrelated in making espresso. Using a little less coffee and a coarser grind with slightly lower brew pressure makes a big difference (not saying that is your problem, though). But a too-fine grind can cause a slow start to extraction, good, slow flow at first, then a gusher before it is half done. Try moving a bit more coarse to slow things down. I know it sounds odd, but it might work. If it helps, try turning down the pressure just a tad, but remember where it was so you can reset it again if it doesn't help. It's a sunergistic relationship... and it can be complicated the closer you get. If espresso was easy, Starbucks could do it..  ;-)

 
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germantownrob
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germantownrob
Joined: 2 Dec 2007
Posts: 2,141
Location: Philadelphia
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Duetto 3, A Dead Oscar
Grinder: Vario-W, Preciso w/Esatto,...
Drip: Brazen
Roaster: Diedrich IR-1, HT B
Posted Wed May 16, 2012, 6:47am
Subject: Re: Extraction question
 

I personally wouldn't start with the brew pressure but if you want to here is a guide on how to with your machine. Click Here (www.chriscoffee.com) I am used to using a higher brew pressure with my Oscar but that is just the nature of my machine and I do my best to control it with my grind. All my shots start slow then pick up some momentum as the shot gets to the end but not gushing or blonding early which could be channeling or poor distribution.

I have drastic grind changes for certain beans on the Vario, as much as 6-8 micro clicks depending on the beans for the same dosed shot, this will result in a big difference in how much time is used on the timer when beans are switched. In general I will grind finer as beans age, this means even with the same bean but a fresher roast the grind will change and so will the time used to get the same dose. I did not use a scale for about a year and just eye balled my dose, the Vario makes this some what consistent when using the timer with the same bean but is a pain to dial in new beans with out a bunch of trial and error. With a scale (now I have the Vario-W) I have a much easier time dialing in as well as making small changes to the dose to bring out different tastes and effecting shot time with out changing grind setting.
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tracerbullet
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tracerbullet
Joined: 13 Feb 2012
Posts: 168
Location: Saint Paul
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Wed May 16, 2012, 11:40am
Subject: Re: Extraction question
 

I can't help here yet but wanted to say you're not alone. Rocky / Gaggia / local fresh beans = similar things for me as far as a slow steady pour at first that starts getting much, much faster about halfway through. I'll play w/ the grind settings & tamp force and see how that affects things. Watching my pour time and not letting it run too long has still given me tasty shots so I haven't worried too much about it. Definitely curious as to the "why" of this.

If you figure this out please post back about it!
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jneff28
Senior Member


Joined: 7 Apr 2007
Posts: 69
Location: Illinois
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Silvia
Grinder: Maestro, Rocky
Drip: Press, quisinart
Roaster: Intelligentsia
Posted Fri May 18, 2012, 4:58am
Subject: Re: Extraction question
 

seems like one click coarser has helped a bit. Also think my tamp pressure got a little strong. seems like the pour is a little more even all the way through. Its amazing how switching to a different coffee can be so different. I was skeptical to change from the local roast but almost enjoy in a weird kind of way the new found learning curve
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tracerbullet
Senior Member
tracerbullet
Joined: 13 Feb 2012
Posts: 168
Location: Saint Paul
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Fri May 18, 2012, 7:33am
Subject: Re: Extraction question
 

Funny, after reading this and thinking about it I tried a few things, and what worked for me was to go a click finer (opposite of you) with less tamping and now I have an even flow throughout the pour.

Just have to experiment I guess.
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NobbyR
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NobbyR
Joined: 10 Jul 2011
Posts: 2,024
Location: Germany
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Poccino Opus One, Ariete
Grinder: Eureka Mignon Istantaneo
Vac Pot: N/A
Drip: Melitta Linea Unica de Luxe
Roaster: N/A
Posted Fri May 18, 2012, 7:48am
Subject: Re: Extraction question
 

jneff28 Said:

Using a vario and silvano machine with Black cat 5 days off roast ...

Posted May 15, 2012 link

Five days after roasting seems a bit early to me. Most beans need 7 to 10 days rest.

You haven't mentioned how those shots taste.

 
***
"This drink of the Satan is so delicious that it would be a shame to leave it to the infidels." (Pope Clement VIII on coffee, when he was urged to ban the beverage)
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emradguy
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emradguy
Joined: 31 Mar 2011
Posts: 2,979
Location: Houston
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Duetto II; Twist v2
Grinder: M Major, Macap M4 x2, VDD...
Drip: Espro presses; Aeropress
Roaster: H-B "List of Favorites"
Posted Fri May 18, 2012, 9:21am
Subject: Re: Extraction question
 

With the wide steps of the Rocky, you will sometimes find you need to be between grind settings.  This is overcome by altering dose, rather than tamp pressure.   This was one of the reasons I am so happy with the stepless Macap grinders that I upgraded to from the Rocky.  It's something to consider when the desire to get better equipment strikes you.  However, I think with Randy's ...guide to better espresso...article, you've got what you need to dial in your shots using whatever fresh beans you want and your current equipment.  It just sometimes takes a little more work with Rocky.

 
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Always remember the most important thing is what ends up in your cup!
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