Posted Tue May 15, 2012, 3:48pm Subject: Extraction question
Using a vario and silvano machine with Black cat 5 days off roast. took me a bit to dial in on my grinder and now I am at 12.4 sec grind time with about 8-10 sec before the shot exits portafilter. starts off really nice but after about 10 sec or 20 seconds total it really starts pouring quickly and then blondes instead of a nice steady stream all the way through. Shot is decent but the pour seems odd. Been using a local roast and the pour seems to stay at a steady rate the whole 25-28 sec. With 12.3 grind time i am just about the line on my basket but without actually measuring not sure exactly how much gram weight I have. Any finer and I am choking the machine and any coarser it pours on through rather quickly. Anyone else with the timer vario who can give me an idea of what kind of grind time your using?
germantownrob Senior Member Joined: 2 Dec 2007 Posts: 2,017 Location: Philadelphia Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Duetto 3, A Dead Oscar Grinder: Vario-W, Preciso w/Esatto,... Drip: Brazen Roaster: Diedrich IR-1, HT B
Posted Tue May 15, 2012, 4:30pm Subject: Re: Extraction question
Grind time is meaning less from one bean to another as is fine/coarse setting. A tenth of a gram scale will be a big help in your dosing. You are also not mentioning what the age of your local roasters beans where, sounds like your BC just needs to be ground finer to adjust for early blonding, hard to speculate on the local rosters results with no data.
Posted Tue May 15, 2012, 6:07pm Subject: Re: Extraction question
not sure the local roast age--they tell me its within a week since it is delivered to the store on mondays. its is quite a bit different then the bc as far as grinder setting. I will try a little finer grind. I guess the length of time it take for the pour to actually start has more to do with dosing? so maybe a tick finer and a second or 2 off of my grind time until I get a scale.
Be aware that all things are interrelated in making espresso. Using a little less coffee and a coarser grind with slightly lower brew pressure makes a big difference (not saying that is your problem, though). But a too-fine grind can cause a slow start to extraction, good, slow flow at first, then a gusher before it is half done. Try moving a bit more coarse to slow things down. I know it sounds odd, but it might work. If it helps, try turning down the pressure just a tad, but remember where it was so you can reset it again if it doesn't help. It's a sunergistic relationship... and it can be complicated the closer you get. If espresso was easy, Starbucks could do it.. ;-)
germantownrob Senior Member Joined: 2 Dec 2007 Posts: 2,017 Location: Philadelphia Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Duetto 3, A Dead Oscar Grinder: Vario-W, Preciso w/Esatto,... Drip: Brazen Roaster: Diedrich IR-1, HT B
Posted Wed May 16, 2012, 6:47am Subject: Re: Extraction question
I personally wouldn't start with the brew pressure but if you want to here is a guide on how to with your machine. Click Here (www.chriscoffee.com) I am used to using a higher brew pressure with my Oscar but that is just the nature of my machine and I do my best to control it with my grind. All my shots start slow then pick up some momentum as the shot gets to the end but not gushing or blonding early which could be channeling or poor distribution.
I have drastic grind changes for certain beans on the Vario, as much as 6-8 micro clicks depending on the beans for the same dosed shot, this will result in a big difference in how much time is used on the timer when beans are switched. In general I will grind finer as beans age, this means even with the same bean but a fresher roast the grind will change and so will the time used to get the same dose. I did not use a scale for about a year and just eye balled my dose, the Vario makes this some what consistent when using the timer with the same bean but is a pain to dial in new beans with out a bunch of trial and error. With a scale (now I have the Vario-W) I have a much easier time dialing in as well as making small changes to the dose to bring out different tastes and effecting shot time with out changing grind setting.
tracerbullet Senior Member Joined: 13 Feb 2012 Posts: 152 Location: Saint Paul Expertise: I love coffee
Posted Wed May 16, 2012, 11:40am Subject: Re: Extraction question
I can't help here yet but wanted to say you're not alone. Rocky / Gaggia / local fresh beans = similar things for me as far as a slow steady pour at first that starts getting much, much faster about halfway through. I'll play w/ the grind settings & tamp force and see how that affects things. Watching my pour time and not letting it run too long has still given me tasty shots so I haven't worried too much about it. Definitely curious as to the "why" of this.
Posted Fri May 18, 2012, 4:58am Subject: Re: Extraction question
seems like one click coarser has helped a bit. Also think my tamp pressure got a little strong. seems like the pour is a little more even all the way through. Its amazing how switching to a different coffee can be so different. I was skeptical to change from the local roast but almost enjoy in a weird kind of way the new found learning curve
tracerbullet Senior Member Joined: 13 Feb 2012 Posts: 152 Location: Saint Paul Expertise: I love coffee
Posted Fri May 18, 2012, 7:33am Subject: Re: Extraction question
Funny, after reading this and thinking about it I tried a few things, and what worked for me was to go a click finer (opposite of you) with less tamping and now I have an even flow throughout the pour.
emradguy Senior Member Joined: 31 Mar 2011 Posts: 1,722 Location: Houston Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: Izzo Alex Duetto II Grinder: MacapM4T, Macap M4, OE Lido,... Drip: Espro press; Aeropress Roaster: internet
Posted Fri May 18, 2012, 9:21am Subject: Re: Extraction question
With the wide steps of the Rocky, you will sometimes find you need to be between grind settings. This is overcome by altering dose, rather than tamp pressure. This was one of the reasons I am so happy with the stepless Macap grinders that I upgraded to from the Rocky. It's something to consider when the desire to get better equipment strikes you. However, I think with Randy's ...guide to better espresso...article, you've got what you need to dial in your shots using whatever fresh beans you want and your current equipment. It just sometimes takes a little more work with Rocky.
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