charly9 Senior Member Joined: 8 Jun 2012 Posts: 5 Location: Ireland Expertise: I love coffee
Posted Fri Jun 8, 2012, 5:47am Subject: how many machines - big secret?
hi, i'm new to this forum, but i'm an espresso guy for 10 yrs. I lived in Barcelona for a while, and been to Italy at least twice a year. as of now i live in the US, NJ, possibly for a long time. I have friends who own cafes, i now people in the roasters and espresso machines industry, and everywhere i go i look for a disinct cup of espresso (no latte and stuff). I've learned alot about coffee beans, espresso and roasting machines... and i always learn. funny thing is, no matter where i was, no one could ever tell me how big this industry is. I mean, people know all about market trends, they tell you about growing cafes and espresso trends in Eastern Europe, China and other places. but, when i asked a simple question: how many professional espresso machines (not for home use, i don't care for) are sold every year? - i got answers starting at 150,000 up to 500,000 a year. you know the thing with a simple question that no one can give you even a reasonable answer for it? well, don't know why, but it kinda bugs me. I googled, binged and searched... nada. what's the big deal? is it some kind of freemasons secret? does anybody really know the answer? thanks
calblacksmith Moderator Joined: 25 Nov 2007 Posts: 5,685 Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A. Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: ECM Veneziano A1 Grinder: Many different commercial Vac Pot: 40s era Silex Drip: Milita, Bunn&Curtis... Roaster: Cast iron pan, gas burner
Posted Fri Jun 8, 2012, 6:28am Subject: Re: how many machines - big secret?
It sounds like a good project for you. Contact EVERY manufacturer in the world and ask them how many they sold last year then add them all up and you will have your answer.
I think the reason there is no easy answer is because no one has done that specific work. Each company can and does keep track of sales but I do not think the need to know the total world wide number in specific is all that mandatory to any manufacturer. They care about market share and relative placement in the market also they balance their production ability to needs and in a world wide recession, if you are still in business from year to year you are doing fairly well.
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charly9 Senior Member Joined: 8 Jun 2012 Posts: 5 Location: Ireland Expertise: I love coffee
Posted Fri Jun 8, 2012, 8:16am Subject: Re: how many machines - big secret?
asking manufacturers? tried it. I've been to SIC in Milano, asked most of the big companies. nada. maybe a professionals or academics will get a different answer. me? i'm just a guy, they ignore.
like I said, it's just that when I get into something (ie, espresso), I like to know the more I can about it. so, I know useless stuff about coffee, even tough I do not roast or buy beans. that's why i asked about the machines.
TonyVan Senior Member Joined: 24 May 2010 Posts: 269 Location: Pacific Northwest Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: GS/3, La Pavoni Grinder: Macap M7K, Rocky Drip: Kone
Posted Fri Jun 8, 2012, 9:24am Subject: Re: how many machines - big secret?
It's a big project, and unless the manufacturers have a motivation to cooperate, the data collection is a nightmare. With espresso, there are dozens - or hundreds - of manufacturers spread throughout the globe, and the types of machines start at little stovetop boilers all the way to huge commercial systems. The segmentation itself is a challenge since the market is shattered along so many levels and factors (sorting out home versus commercial is tough enough, but just think of the other distinctions).
One rule of marketing is that you can always brag about having the #1 market share - so long as you define your market tightly enough. So someone's going to trumpet being the market leader on every web page and advertisement, and claim proof from your data, with (maybe) a tiny asterisk that adds that they're really just #1 in North America espresso machines using single boilers costing between $500 and $$749 that provide steaming capabilities and an option to be plumbed in and are compatible with pods ... and on they go.
Part of the problem is that counting market share by unit volume (or probably by revenue too) would punish the old line cafe makers by making them look insignificant compared to the mass markets for Breville, Jura and so forth, while the huge players normally hold their data confidential for competitive reasons - so motivated cooperation to provide data is tough to come by.
greattemper Senior Member Joined: 25 Mar 2012 Posts: 19 Location: Tel-Aviv Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Andreja Premium by quickmill Grinder: Lelit Roaster: Popcorn
Posted Sun Jun 10, 2012, 11:49pm Subject: Re: how many machines - big secret?
Click Here (www.ibisworld.com) the above is for the US market but if you Google the term: "coffee machines market analysis" you will find tones of info.
charly9 Senior Member Joined: 8 Jun 2012 Posts: 5 Location: Ireland Expertise: I love coffee
Posted Mon Jun 11, 2012, 1:55pm Subject: Re: how many machines - big secret?
thank you guys. greattemper, i know the EU report (read all 10 parts), but it refers to home appliances. also, the US market report seems strange (at first sight) - only 17 businesses? guess the revenue number refers to home&pro machines. also, it costs around 1k. like I said, just wanted to know something about professional espresso machines. I'm not from the industry, don't work in marketing of something like that. guess i'll just give it up. still, don't get it - what's the big deal?
charly9 Senior Member Joined: 8 Jun 2012 Posts: 5 Location: Ireland Expertise: I love coffee
Posted Tue Jun 12, 2012, 3:54pm Subject: Re: how many machines - big secret?
sorry if ioffended you guys. maybe you misunderstood. when said "what's the big deal" I wasnt talking about you. what meant was: what's the big deal, what's the big secret that even industry people don't know the answer. like said, the answers (from those who were willing to take a guess or estimate) differ significantly from 150k to 500k a year. ofcourse data and market analysis and trends etc are all gathered and published by professional people/companies. just never thought of espresso machines as a top secret market - these facts/estimations do not exist (at least not accessible to common guys like me).
Stuart Senior Member Joined: 9 Feb 2012 Posts: 113 Location: TX Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Breville Dual Boiler Grinder: Baratza Vario Roaster: Air Crazy popper
Posted Tue Jun 12, 2012, 5:55pm Subject: Re: how many machines - big secret?
I'm not an espresso or coffee professional, but I do work for a privately-held company and I know we don't tell the public our sales figures (or our profit figures).
Plus, I'm a bit surprised to see "17" domestic manufacturers of commercial coffee machines. I hear more like "two" or "four" when we ask about US manufacturers of machines. (Lessee; there's Slayer, and Synesso, and Salvatore, and . . . ?)
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