Posted Fri Aug 17, 2012, 7:29am Subject: Espresso Definition?
So, first admission: I'm not an espresso drinker. I drink mostly brew coffee, and my preference is for coffee drank at concentrations generally below 2.2% strength. I thought I'd wander over to the espresso side from my usual forum haunt...
I do like to figure stuff out. I've slogged through much of Illy's book, Rao's, and countless posts and pages online. It appears there is no real definition for espresso other than these common factors:
-it must involve brewing pressure 8 bar or more -generally completed in <30 seconds -it must have crema -water temperature is generally near normal brewing temperature
Other than that - actual definitions for amount of coffee, definitions for ranges of ristretto, normale, lungo all seem to be fairly vague. Many of the definitions that attempt to standardize the definition define the yield as volume (ARRRGH!) instead of mass.
the HB page has Italy's version of the definition (or one of the self-proclaimed organizations regarding espresso) Click Here (www.espressoitaliano.org)
It seems that a single shot defined by many organizations that attempt to pin the definition down specify something between 6.5g - 8.5g of coffee per 25 - 35ml shot, including CREMA - except the Crema may be anywhere from 3ml to 12ml of the volume! One may assume this is a normale, meaning a ristretto would be less water and lungo would be more water in same time and same extraction...
In the absence of data, I have started to gather some. Starbucks varies in resulting strength for a single, but generally ends up around 4.5% - 7% strength. Coffee shops with a barista around here tend to updose but bring their expertise to the table, and can obtain strengths at good extraction and flavor at upwards of 12% strength or more (ristretto). I have an ancient Gaggia Synchrony Compact that consistently does 27g shots at 5% strength for a normal setting, and my friend's newer Gaggia superauto does about 5% strength also. Caribou is fairly consistent at 6% or so...
Thought I'd dive into the multitudes of experts here and see what you guys and gals actually think.
Are there mass-based yield definitions for solo (single) and doppio (double)? What about amounts of coffee to produce a solo or doppio?
Thoughts?
------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------------- Le café doit être noir comme le diable, chaud comme l'enfer, pur comme un ange, et doux comme l'amour.
"There is no right answer with coffee. There is only the elixir in your cup at the moment you partake."
"...I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind;..." - Lord Kelvin RECIPES thread => http://www.coffeegeek.com/forums/coffee/machines/585708
Posted Fri Aug 17, 2012, 7:57am Subject: Re: Espresso Definition?
The difficulty is that many of the 'standards" set over the years have been driven by commercial entities (Illy comes to mind). So much of the confusion is a muddled mess. For example, there was a discussion a while back as whether or not a Moka pot makes espresso. They cannot generate anything even within sight of 8 bars. But go to Italy and ask and you will be assured that it does indeed make espresso.
NobbyR Senior Member Joined: 10 Jul 2011 Posts: 1,661 Location: Germany Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Poccino Opus One, Ariete Grinder: Eureka Mignon Istantaneo,... Vac Pot: N/A Drip: Melitta Linea Unica de Luxe Roaster: N/A
Posted Fri Aug 17, 2012, 10:11am Subject: Re: Espresso Definition?
Unless you own a coffee shop or restaurant and want to serve certified Italian espresso, you might as well forget the highly technical definition of the Istituto Nazionale Espresso Italiano or any other coffee association. It can only give you a general (but very good) idea what espresso should be like. Any standard is only a starting point, from which you can try to find out what you personally like best. After all most here use more than just 7 g for a single or 14 g for a double shot. What counts in the end is the taste in your cup.
However, looking at the godawful espresso and espresso based drinks served in many places around the world, those standards are badly needed to define and maintain a certain minimum quality.
*** "This drink of the Satan is so delicious that it would be a shame to leave it to the infidels." (Pope Clement VIII on coffee)
Posted Fri Aug 17, 2012, 10:12am Subject: Re: Espresso Definition?
frcn Said:
The difficulty is that many of the 'standards" set over the years have been driven by commercial entities (Illy comes to mind). So much of the confusion is a muddled mess. For example, there was a discussion a while back as whether or not a Moka pot makes espresso. They cannot generate anything even within sight of 8 bars. But go to Italy and ask and you will be assured that it does indeed make espresso.
Exactly along the lines of what I was thinking. There used to be the AP making espresso, moka pot making espresso... but in my studies of brew coffee extraction if it were possible to boil down the definition of espresso in terms of a specific TDS from a certain amount of coffee at a given concentration.
Example: it's pretty much impossible to brew a resulting 25ml/25g of anything with a pourover on 8g of coffee, and achieve anything like the necessary 6.4% strength for correct extraction and only gravity dragging the brew water through the grounds. I think the other part that makes espresso "espresso" is the method used to brew it must be percolation (as opposed to steep/infusion), but obviously one of the things that speeds up the system is the pressure.
Now, the other interesting thing is the taste of equally-diluted, properly extracted espresso to a well-brewed properly extracted same strength coffee.... but that's OT from the original question of the "definition" of espresso.
------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------------- Le café doit être noir comme le diable, chaud comme l'enfer, pur comme un ange, et doux comme l'amour.
"There is no right answer with coffee. There is only the elixir in your cup at the moment you partake."
"...I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind;..." - Lord Kelvin RECIPES thread => http://www.coffeegeek.com/forums/coffee/machines/585708
NobbyR Senior Member Joined: 10 Jul 2011 Posts: 1,661 Location: Germany Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Poccino Opus One, Ariete Grinder: Eureka Mignon Istantaneo,... Vac Pot: N/A Drip: Melitta Linea Unica de Luxe Roaster: N/A
Posted Fri Aug 17, 2012, 10:20am Subject: Re: Espresso Definition?
Netphilosopher Said:
... Now, the other interesting thing is the taste of equally-diluted, properly extracted espresso to a well-brewed properly extracted same strength coffee.... but that's OT from the original question of the "definition" of espresso.
Absolutely. However, the resulting strength of something like a Starbuck's Americano is pretty watery-weak.
I've had some Americanos from *$s at 0.68%. Their brewed coffee tends to be ~1.35% to as high as 1.50%.
For *$s, you need to add an extra shot to get the strength up to "normal".
------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------------- Le café doit être noir comme le diable, chaud comme l'enfer, pur comme un ange, et doux comme l'amour.
"There is no right answer with coffee. There is only the elixir in your cup at the moment you partake."
"...I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind;..." - Lord Kelvin RECIPES thread => http://www.coffeegeek.com/forums/coffee/machines/585708
In fact, you should try iced espresso with a bit of added frosty cold water. YUM!
The flash cooling helps arrest some of the flavor degradation with temp and time. Really get an emphasis on sweetness.
------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------------- Le café doit être noir comme le diable, chaud comme l'enfer, pur comme un ange, et doux comme l'amour.
"There is no right answer with coffee. There is only the elixir in your cup at the moment you partake."
"...I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind;..." - Lord Kelvin RECIPES thread => http://www.coffeegeek.com/forums/coffee/machines/585708
cappuccinoboy Senior Member Joined: 27 Jun 2009 Posts: 793 Location: MILANO Expertise: Professional
Espresso: Milano pod, Milano fully... Grinder: grind on demand
Posted Fri Aug 17, 2012, 12:28pm Subject: Re: Espresso Definition?
frcn Said:
The difficulty is that many of the 'standards" set over the years have been driven by commercial entities (Illy comes to mind). So much of the confusion is a muddled mess. For example, there was a discussion a while back as whether or not a Moka pot makes espresso. They cannot generate anything even within sight of 8 bars. But go to Italy and ask and you will be assured that it does indeed make espresso.
Randy, I live in Italy and can assure you that no one here thinks that moka pot makes espresso, unless you are referring to the "BACCHI" that does make 9Bar espresso, shame the Bacchi is only known to a limited number of amateurs. It is more a problem of roasters who offer miracle blends..., or people who collect the first droplets of coffee and mix with sugar that vigourously stirred gives a kind of crema to be added to the cup after coffee is served Ciao, Pietro
CMIN Senior Member Joined: 14 Jun 2012 Posts: 560 Location: South FL Expertise: I like coffee
Espresso: Crossland CC1 Grinder: Baratza Preciso
Posted Fri Aug 17, 2012, 1:24pm Subject: Re: Espresso Definition?
cappuccinoboy Said:
Randy, I live in Italy and can assure you that no one here thinks that moka pot makes espresso, unless you are referring to the "BACCHI" that does make 9Bar espresso, shame the Bacchi is only known to a limited number of amateurs. It is more a problem of roasters who offer miracle blends..., or people who collect the first droplets of coffee and mix with sugar that vigourously stirred gives a kind of crema to be added to the cup after coffee is served Ciao, Pietro
Yeh I don't consider Moka to be espresso, it's about as close as you can get to espresso though in terms of that deep, thick/syrupy type flavor. That Bacchi machine is really cool though, watched some vids on youtube.
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