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Extraction looks great, glupy red-brown, but goes pale and watery after 8-10 sec
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Discussions > Espresso > Q and A > Extraction looks...  
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kingoslo
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Joined: 24 Dec 2011
Posts: 33
Location: OSLO
Expertise: I like coffee

Posted Sat Dec 8, 2012, 6:15am
Subject: Extraction looks great, glupy red-brown, but goes pale and watery after 8-10 sec
 

Hello there,

I have been making espresso for a year. Its taken a long time to reduce the most obvious blunders. Lately, I have began sifting the coffee through a sifter, which produces great looking extraction. The coffee is glupy and red-brown.

The problem is, it looks great for about 8-10 seconds, and then it goes pale and watery all of a sudden. Is this normal?

I was hoping the more experienced brewers could list the most common problems causing this to happen. That way I could analyse my brewing further.

Thank you for your time.

Kind regards,
Marius
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calblacksmith
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calblacksmith
Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 7,781
Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A.
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: ECM Vene. A1, La Cimbali M32
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Vac Pot: 40s era Silex
Drip: Msl. Com. brewers
Roaster: gave it a try, decided no
Posted Sat Dec 8, 2012, 11:46am
Subject: Re: Extraction looks great, glupy red-brown,
 

HI
You don't say what grinder you have, there should be no need for a sifter, the grounds should be uniform and none of them should be able to be trapped in a sifter.

Are you saying you have clumps? Are you saying you r distrobution is bad? Are you saying you have a great range of grounds and you need to use a sifter to get more consistency?

It is normal for the shot to lighten as it progresses, it should not go blond though, an easy way to tell if it is going blond is if you get a whitesh spot in your shot. If you are, stop the shot before that happens.

My guess on things is that your grinder isn't able to grind for espresso based on what I think I am reading.

PLease do not use the entire title bar for your subject, The forum software adds to your title and then anyone who answers you is forced to shorten your title.

 
In real life, my name is
Wayne P.
Anything I post is personal opinion and is only worth as much as anyone else's personal opinion. YMMV!

Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
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kingoslo
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Joined: 24 Dec 2011
Posts: 33
Location: OSLO
Expertise: I like coffee

Posted Sat Dec 8, 2012, 2:08pm
Subject: Re: Extraction looks great, glupy
 

Thank you for your reply.

I would like to let you know that I am sorry about the long subject. I understand that this is a problem, and I will not do it again.

I think my grinder is OK. It grinds uniformly, and when I look at the particles under the microscope, they look alright. I use the sifter as an attempt to remove clumps and get uniform distribution in the portafilter. It is time consuming, but looks uniform.

The extraction starts off great, but then after 10 sec, the extraction turns from red-brown honey-like to blond-watery very abruptly, in approximatly one second.

I will post a video once it is finished editing. The annotation is not in English, but it shows my process in detail, and I suspect it will be useful for criticising my technique. It also has a shot under the microscope of the grounds too.

Again, thanks for reading! :)

Kind regards,
Marius
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andys
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andys
Joined: 10 May 2003
Posts: 857
Location: NY
Expertise: Just starting

Espresso: Speedster, Londinium 1
Grinder: EK-43,Robur, HG One, M3
Vac Pot: Yama
Drip: various
Roaster: PIDed Popper
Posted Sat Dec 8, 2012, 5:06pm
Subject: Re: Extraction looks great, glupy
 

kingoslo Said:

I use the sifter as an attempt to remove clumps and get uniform distribution in the portafilter. It is time consuming, but looks uniform.

Posted December 8, 2012 link

If you do a WDT instead of using the sifter, do you get a better result?

 
-AndyS
picture page:  http://flickr.com/photos/andy_s/sets/
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kingoslo
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Joined: 24 Dec 2011
Posts: 33
Location: OSLO
Expertise: I like coffee

Posted Sat Dec 8, 2012, 5:20pm
Subject: Re: Extraction looks great, glupy red-brown,
 

Hello everyone,

Here is a video depicting my technique: I hope you are able to look at it, and post your criticism here. It seems something violently happening inside the portafilter after about 10 sec. Check how the extraction looks.

Here is the video [sorry that I do not have English annotation, but it shows how I do it]:

http://youtu.be/u9Hr3Gz2CKY

Regarding Weiss Distribution Technique, I feel it gave similar results as sifter, perhaps sifter was slightly better extraction just in the beginning, but there isn't much difference. After a few seconds, the water just plunges through anyway.
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Coffeenoobie
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Coffeenoobie
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Espresso: N S Oscar
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Posted Sat Dec 8, 2012, 6:05pm
Subject: Re: Extraction looks great, glupy red-brown, but goes pale
 

I am not a pro but after seeing your tamp, I would do the North - south - east - west tamp before the main tamp because of your sides.  That or maybe a larger tamper. I think you are getting massive side channeling but like I said I am not pro.  A naked/bottomless portafilter would help you see what is happening.

 
Coffeenoobie

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andys
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andys
Joined: 10 May 2003
Posts: 857
Location: NY
Expertise: Just starting

Espresso: Speedster, Londinium 1
Grinder: EK-43,Robur, HG One, M3
Vac Pot: Yama
Drip: various
Roaster: PIDed Popper
Posted Sat Dec 8, 2012, 6:52pm
Subject: Re: Extraction looks great, glupy red-brown,
 

kingoslo Said:

Here is the video [sorry that I do not have English annotation, but it shows how I do it]:

http://youtu.be/u9Hr3Gz2CKY

Posted December 8, 2012 link

Based on how far into the basket your tamper goes, it looks like your dose is high. It is possible that when you insert the portafilter into the group, the shower screen is breaking up the top surface of your puck, which makes the puck more likely to channel.

You could test this by dosing and tamping as usual, then locking the portafilter into the DRY group (no flush) as usual, but do not start the shot. Then remove the portafilter and see if the puck surface has been damaged.

If yes, the obvious solution is to grind finer and dose lower.

 
-AndyS
picture page:  http://flickr.com/photos/andy_s/sets/
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kingoslo
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Location: OSLO
Expertise: I like coffee

Posted Sat Dec 8, 2012, 7:13pm
Subject: Re: Extraction looks great, glupy red-brown,
 

andys Said:

It is possible that when you insert the portafilter into the group, the shower screen is breaking up the top surface of your puck, which makes the puck more likely to channel.

You could test this by dosing and tamping as usual, then locking the portafilter into the DRY group (no flush) as usual, but do not start the shot. Then remove the portafilter and see if the puck surface has been damaged.

If yes, the obvious solution is to grind finer and dose lower.

Posted December 8, 2012 link

Thank you for your message, this does not seem to be the issue anymore. During the last year, this is one of the blunders which I experienced, but it I am avoiding this now.


Coffeenoobie Said:

I am not a pro but after seeing your tamp, I would do the North - south - east - west tamp before the main tamp because of your sides.  That or maybe a larger tamper. I think you are getting massive side channeling but like I said I am not pro.  A naked/bottomless portafilter would help you see what is happening.

Posted December 8, 2012 link

I never thought about this! Should be fun to try in the morning. The basket is slightly conical, so I expected the angled sides relative to the vertical tamp would solve this problem. Will try this in the morning.
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Coffeenoobie
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Coffeenoobie
Joined: 11 Dec 2011
Posts: 3,031
Location: PNW
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: N S Oscar
Grinder: K30 & Vario W
Posted Sat Dec 8, 2012, 9:38pm
Subject: Re: Extraction looks great, glupy red-brown,
 

I just don't have the big pile up of grounds on the side of my basket.  I have to work on side channeling in my VST baskets with naked portafilter it is very likely to happen so I am always fighting it.  Channeling could explain what you see with the color changing all in a rush like that.

 
Coffeenoobie

Buying advice: GRINDER GRINDER GRINDER. Don't cheap out on the grinder.

My coffee treasure map...
Click Here (maps.google.com)

Oscar trick out: http://s156.photobucket.com/user/GandBteam/story/14231
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frank828
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Joined: 23 Feb 2011
Posts: 581
Location: Los Angeles
Expertise: Professional

Espresso: GS3
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Drip: Brazen, CCD, Aeropress, V60,...
Roaster: Behmor, Air Crazy
Posted Sun Dec 9, 2012, 3:23am
Subject: Re: Extraction looks great, glupy red-brown,
 

for the heck of it, try dumping the grounds into a milk pitcher, mix it up nice, then dose into your basket as evenly as you can.  Level it off, give a little settling tap on the counter and then tamp straight.  

I took this advice from tekomino over on HB(tek here) and my extractions are looking so much better these days.
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