Posted Tue Jul 13, 2004, 3:40am Subject: How Important Is The Machine?
Thanks to all who have helped me starting out with espresso making. One question I've asked before but haven't really had a detailed answer to is the above: How important is the espresso machine in the whole process?
I've learnt that the grinder, the beans, the tamper and the temperature are all critical. Once you've got all of those right (and most of those are more about practise than expense) how much difference does having a good machine make? I ask because I'm working my way to very soon having a pretty decent set up, but my espresso machine (a Delonghi) is an unknown quantity. If I've got everything else right, is it still possible that my machine, if it's not great, will spoil the show? Should I look at getting a new espresso machine too?
Posted Tue Jul 13, 2004, 3:49am Subject: Re: How Important Is The Machine?
Futher to that previous message, I should add that the machine I have is pump-driven (I think 15bar). I don't know what the boiler is made of. The portafilter and baskets look pretty standard.
ljguitar Senior Member Joined: 28 Jan 2003 Posts: 2,450 Location: Cheyenne Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: Expobar Pulsar Grinder: Mazzer Super Jolly, Solis Drip: Bunn Roaster: iRoast2
Posted Tue Jul 13, 2004, 6:08am Subject: Re: How Important Is The Machine?
phil2415 Said:
Thanks to all who have helped me starting out with espresso making. One question I've asked before but haven't really had a detailed answer to is the above: How important is the espresso machine in the whole process?
Hi Phil... To me it's like asking "How important is the guitar to guitar playing?" One can certainly learn to play guitar on an inexpensive instrument and then upgrade to a better sounding instrument later. But if you haven't learned how to play guitar, a $2000.00 guitar will only make your mistakes louder not better.
A decent espresso machine in the hands of a competent person will pull great shots. A better machine in the hands of a skilled person will produce incredible shots.
It would be accurate, but not fair, if I said I pull better shots with my Expobar HX than I used to with my Briel 1st class (small inexpensive pump machine). It would be better to explain that I still use the Briel occasionally (camping trailer) and I can pull better shots with it now than I ever did when it was our primary machine because of what I've learned. The HX still produces a better shot - easier too.
A small pump machine is a great way to start learning the basics of espresso making. When friends who have seen our machine ask how to get started, I recommend the Gaggia Carezza and several have purchased them and are perfectly content with them. Most are using them several times a week, and have had no need to jump to new levels of machines.
Posted Tue Jul 13, 2004, 6:41am Subject: Re: How Important Is The Machine?
I would list the four M's of making espresso in this order:
Miscela (blend)
Macinadosatore (grinder-doser)
Macchina espresso (espresso machine)
Ah yes, the fourth M... Mano dell'operatore (hand of the operator). Where does it fit in? Like Larry pointed out, to some degree, a good barista can compensate for lesser equipment. A poor barista can pull swill from the most expensive equipment available, as amply demonstrated in cafés all around the world. Better equipment is more consistent and predictable; reproducibility is the key to improving the quality of your shots.
Many first-time buyers skimp on the grinder. That's a big mistake that many on this board have made (including myself :-o).
Posted Tue Jul 13, 2004, 8:15am Subject: Re: How Important Is The Machine?
I've already made that mistake and now I've ordered a grinder which, from what I can make out after extensive research, is about the best in my price range and well capable of producing grounds for a great espresso.
So is the concensus that I should stick with my machine for now and learn my 'trade' then upgrade when I can get decent shots out of my perhaps inferior machine?
One final consideration is that (I think like most men) I love buying new gadgets, so I wouldn't necessarily be devastated to have an excuse to buy a new machine. But if I did so, it would likely only be a Capresso, or maybe a Coffee or Classic depending on how much cash I had at the time, and I don't know if any of them would really be a signifcant upgrade from what I've got.
expobar Senior Member Joined: 25 Mar 2004 Posts: 3,003 Location: .
Posted Tue Jul 13, 2004, 8:29am Subject: Re: How Important Is The Machine?
phil2415 Said:
One final consideration is that (I think like most men) I love buying new gadgets, so I wouldn't necessarily be devastated to have an excuse to buy a new machine. But if I did so, it would likely only be a Capresso, or maybe a Coffee or Classic depending on how much cash I had at the time, and I don't know if any of them would really be a signifcant upgrade from what I've got.
Look at the carezza or espresso. those are nice machines that are fairly inexpensive and very high quality. also, they perform the same as the 2 gaggias you mentioned only are more plasticy and unlike the classic, they dont have a 3-way solenoid
Posted Tue Jul 13, 2004, 9:08am Subject: Re: How Important Is The Machine?
phil2415 Said:
So is the concensus that I should stick with my machine for now and learn my 'trade' then upgrade when I can get decent shots out of my perhaps inferior machine?
Knowing what I do now, I would have skipped straight to my current setup. However, you could not have convinced me it was worth the money at that time.
Posted Tue Jul 13, 2004, 11:07am Subject: Re: How Important Is The Machine?
The conventional wisdom is clearly that if you can afford it, you should go for a very good machine (and matching grinder) right from the start. That's certainly what you read here and on alt.coffee, but I still wonder whether that's the best advice.
The vast majority of people who post here and to alt.coffee are into espresso at a very high level of quality, but it's conceivable that they make up only a small fraction of all home espresso preparers. We don't hear much from those who have bought a Silvia and Solis Maestro (or equivalent) and stopped there because the results are good enough for them.
Maybe that's because once their "quest" has been reached, they stop reading and posting? But are these (more sane and sensible?) people only 10% of all home espresso preparers, or are they 90%? Nobody knows! Until we do, I am not sure the "go for the good stuff" is the best advice. It certainly is for those of use who are still here, but what about the others? How many people have dusty HX espresso machines sitting in their basements or garages, or worse, taking up valuable real estate on their countertops? Could it be that home espresso machines have a lot in common with exercise equipment bought in January??
Ah, but there is certainly one difference between that dusty Bowflex in your basement and used espresso equipment! Decent espresso equipment depreciates very slowly! I sold my Silvia for what I paid for it used 3 years ago! If I decided to sell Rocky, I could probably recover what I paid for it from the original owner.
This suggests another strategy -- buy good used equipment from someone who has upgrade fever, but don't worry about going "all the way" on the first purchase. If "the itch" is passed along on used espresso equipment, you can always recover nearly every penny you paid for it if and when you succumb to your own personal case of upgrade fever. But if not, you've saved a pile of money and a lot of hassle in case you decide that the care and feeding of a semi-commercial HX machine is not your cup of tea. Ask anyone who has sold a semi-commercial or commercial espresso machine on eBay. Shipping is a huge hassle, and the buyer may think you've ripped him off because the machine doesn't make great espresso from that brick-pack of "espresso coffee" aunt Martha bought for him at the Italian grocery store last year!
If you prefer this strategy, it's important to get an espresso machine that fits your profile. If you are certain you won't be put off by the mess, inconvenience and discipline of being a home barista, by all means go for the machine you need to meet your requirements. But if you're just starting out and are not sure, maybe you're better off buying a used Silvia or Gaggia? Small footprint, great learning experience, very robust machine, very good espresso, and very low financial risk! What more can you ask?
CJR Senior Member Joined: 23 May 2004 Posts: 15 Location: Melbourne, Australia Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Silvia Grinder: Rocky
Posted Tue Jul 13, 2004, 3:46pm Subject: Re: How Important Is The Machine?
Rick
I'm a relative newbie to the espresso game and am a big fan of the CG website. It has helped me decide on my first machine/grinder combo.
I've read a lot of info on CG but reading your post inspired me to reply simply to say thanks for your great advice. It's not that often that someone writes really good, objective advice which points out the fact that most of the posts on CG are from serious CGs and the amount of money spent and attention given to espresso by these people may not be 'normal' (to the general public).
I myself have gone for a setup that is not bottom of the range but that is probably considered a decent amount of money to drop for coffee paraphernalia by people that are not really into espresso (Rocky/Silvia). Let's see what the future brings ...
Posted Tue Jul 13, 2004, 4:59pm Subject: Re: How Important Is The Machine?
CJR Said:
I myself have gone for a setup that is not bottom of the range but that is probably considered a decent amount of money to drop for coffee paraphernalia by people that are not really into espresso (Rocky/Silvia). Let's see what the future brings ...
Not really into espresso?? Rocky & Silvia is an excellent choice!! That's what I have, plus a Mazzer Mini. You'll pull awesome shots with fresh coffee, & fresh homeroast is the absolute best. Once you're familiar with Silvia & have her dialed in, it's just amazing what she's capable of!
I also pull triples that'll blow yer socks off! {:-D
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