ZzLine Senior Member Joined: 19 Jan 2013 Posts: 36 Location: Norway Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Francis Francis X3 Grinder: The point is to ENJOY THE... Roaster: Dualit--> The English Verson...
Posted Sun Jan 20, 2013, 12:37pm Subject: Re: Hi i'm new here, and my Bugatti Diva is new in my house..
IMAWriter Said:
And applying your own corollary, you don't necessarily need a great machine to make great coffee...buit you NEED A VERY GOOD GRINDER to make good coffee. What we're trying to say is that coffee experts...and non experts KNOW that the grinder is more important than the machine. Until you grind fresh beans in a good espresso grinder, you could have a $2000 machine and you'd still produce lousy coffee.
A note to you if I may, you were not being treated rudely, you were being told the TRUTH.
Being a "fan" of your machine doesn't change the fact that it is not very good. The fact you are not grinding fresh beans only points out that fact more clearly. If you want to learn, we are here to help. But you first have to be willing to accept the fact your "machine love" only holds you back. When you are ready, we are here to help.
I am sorry that I misunderstood the English attitude of "how to tell someone" in a nice way that their machine is shit. There are 100 different ways to say things, you can only choose. And now, now I'll bury the topic and change my attitude and understand that I am being helped here if I want to - and I will!
It was actually considering that everyone now wants capsule machine that there certainly would be a lot of ads from people who would sell their own espresso machine that they had received nespresso for Christmas. And I was right! Finn.no were full of manual machines and I thought I would make a bargain. And yes, I have actually been a good girl, read me up online on the various machines that would not cost as much as my car as new, but to "give away" prices aswell. And yes again - anywhere on the web then it says that there must be at least 15 Bar on a machine.
So then I start therefore from scratch again .. I'm here to learn and get your guys advice!
JasonBrandtLewis Senior Member Joined: 9 Dec 2005 Posts: 6,099 Location: Berkeley, CA Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: Elektra T1 - La Valentina -... Grinder: Mahlkönig K30 Vario -... Vac Pot: Yama 5-cup Drip: CCD, Chemex Roaster: No, no, not another...
Posted Sun Jan 20, 2013, 1:06pm Subject: Re: Hi i'm new here, and my Bugatti Diva is new in my house..
Line, you need NINE bars to produce espresso -- the ads that tells you about 15 bars are trying to say "15 is better than 9," but nine is all you need.
ZzLine Said:
It was actually considering that everyone now wants capsule machine that there certainly would be a lot of ads from people who would sell their own espresso machine that they had received nespresso for Christmas.
No one I know wants a Nespresso or capsule machine that I know . . .
Now it is true that Nespresso is a) catching on here in the US, and b) is more popular in Europe. And I will admit that I am happier when staying in a hotel to find a Nespresso machine in my room rather than a machine that uses Starbucks. But no one who is serious about making espresso needs or wants a Nespresso machine in their house. In a sense, Line, Nespresso is to real espresso what canned soup is to homemade . . . it will do, but it's never as good as what your mother made.
ZzLine Said:
anywhere on the web then it says that there must be at least 15 Bar on a machine.
No. Espresso is made with NINE (9) bars of pressure. Many machines advertise 15 bars, it's true. But that's based upon the idea that, if 9 is good, 15 is better. Not true.
If you will take a quick look at the Istituto Nazionale Espresso Italiano website and, specifically, at their L'Espresso Italian Certificato (scroll down to page 7), you'll see that -- among other things -- they call for 9 bars of pressure.
ZzLine Senior Member Joined: 19 Jan 2013 Posts: 36 Location: Norway Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Francis Francis X3 Grinder: The point is to ENJOY THE... Roaster: Dualit--> The English Verson...
Posted Sun Jan 20, 2013, 1:59pm Subject: Re: Hi i'm new here, and my Bugatti Diva is new in my house..
emradguy Said:
So, I took a look at the links (well, the 1st one at least - the 2nd one didn't show me a machine). As Dave pointed out the machine does have a few problems, even though it looks beautiful. First, it's very light weight (only 14 pounds), which (as Dave said) means it won't have good temperature stability. The boiler is actually tiny, at only 250 mL. The Rancilio Silvia (kind of a former gold standard as entry level, and selling for less than you paid) for comparison, has an 800 mL boiler. The Silvia also weighs about 30 pounds (more mass = more thermal stability = more consistent espresso making). As another comparison, the machine I have weighs around 70 pounds.
There is a company called Nestle (perhaps you've heard of it), they make a very popular machine called the N'espresso. Sadly for espresso lovers, their marketing team has successfully convinced unknowing consumers that 15 bar pressure is a good thing. Well, it's not. By Italian standards, espresso is extracted using 8-9 bar pressure. So, if your pump is delivering 15, you need something mechanical to lower it by the time the water hits the ground beans. DavecUK actually works on machines (and in fact has helped me with a problem in the past on my own machine). He knows internals very well. Please reread his post, he makes some very good points (even if you didn't like the way it sounded as you read it before).
Anyhow, the shorter answer is yeah, you can do better with that machine on a consistent basis. However, it's going to take some learning, not just how it works, but how its temperature fluctuates, and when it's ready to do each function. A much more expensive machine (not that I'm saying you should buy one) is more forgiving in that once it's come to operating temperature, you just walk up to it whenever you want and pull a shot or froth some milk at will. However, with your machine, you can make one or two shots at a time, then steam a small amount of milk (don't steam and then make shots)...but then you're going to have to wait around for the temperature to come back down. So, no entertaining with that machine, at least not large groups.
In order to make good espresso, you will definitely need to invest in a grinder, as mentioned above by Dave and Rob. Grinding in the market will not suffice. Ground coffee goes stale within 15 minutes, and after that point cannot produce good espresso.
So...lessons...
1) buy a good grinder (we have lots of threads on what to buy, but if you give us a budget, we'll help you spend it wisely). 2) buy your beans whole, and roasted within the past 15 days or so. 3) make shots of espresso, then froth milk (NOT the other way around).
First of all, I couldn't agree more about the N'espresso industry. They no longer sell other than capsule machines in Norwegian stores at this point. So I tried eBay to buy a good espresso machine in the USA because there are far cheaper than here.
A good Espresso machine here in Norway costs between 20 and 30 thousands of NOK which is about 3,570 and $ 5,355 But an obstacle is power on 230V here compared to which you have ...
And for the freshly roasted beans .. how do I get it? A coffee grinder I can always get hold of, but to buy it from the U.S. then the power is again a problem. Which do you recommend?
Posted Sun Jan 20, 2013, 4:05pm Subject: Re: Hi i'm new here, and my Bugatti Diva is new in my house..
I bet that Bugatti can make something decent. I had to make a trip to some relatives this weekend who I had not seen in 12 years. When the directions include "after the pavement ends, stay to the right to avoid the gully after the curve" you know things are going to be a bit primitive. I brought my Zassenhaus Havana grinder, fresh roasted coffee, filter cone, and some filters.
After the filters (small starter pack) ran out I ventured back into town to find some cones. The Aldi only sold basket filters, and a marked-down $33 espresso maker. I bit, knowing boredom without the internet was inevitable. I had enough fun that I brought it back and gave it a whirl with a non-pressurized basket today. Great shots? Nope, but certainly passable and with steamed milk would be acceptable to most.
That Bugatti should look like a Speedster compared to this Crofton:
(Click for larger image)
I chew coffee beans with my teeth while gargling with 195 F water to enjoy coffee. What is this "coffee brewing" device you speak of?
JasonBrandtLewis Senior Member Joined: 9 Dec 2005 Posts: 6,099 Location: Berkeley, CA Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: Elektra T1 - La Valentina -... Grinder: Mahlkönig K30 Vario -... Vac Pot: Yama 5-cup Drip: CCD, Chemex Roaster: No, no, not another...
Posted Sun Jan 20, 2013, 4:16pm Subject: Re: Hi i'm new here, and my Bugatti Diva is new in my house..
Again, Line, I am not trying to be difficult but -- preferably in Euros -- could you give us some sort of budget? There is no point in recommending a grinder that costs €3,000 (or 22,000+ NOK), if your budget is only €300. Some guidance from you is helpful . . .
ZzLine Senior Member Joined: 19 Jan 2013 Posts: 36 Location: Norway Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Francis Francis X3 Grinder: The point is to ENJOY THE... Roaster: Dualit--> The English Verson...
Posted Sun Jan 20, 2013, 4:31pm Subject: Re: Hi i'm new here, and my Bugatti Diva is new in my house..
JasonBrandtLewis Said:
Again, Line, I am not trying to be difficult but -- preferably in Euros -- could you give us some sort of budget? There is no point in recommending a grinder that costs €3,000 (or 22,000+ NOK), if your budget is only €300. Some guidance from you is helpful . . .
oh, sorry.. eh I guess something between €100 and 200 I could probably manage in a couple of three months...
This is starting to be ironic since I paid roughly €334 for my Bugatti Diva. I try to read about others here with the same machine and they have the same problem many of them. But it is one that has a daughter that has one similar - it works just like it should. (?)
This is sad, frustrating and damn that I didn't know about this forum before I bought ..
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