Our Valued Sponsor
OpinionsConsumer ReviewsGuides and How TosCoffeeGeek ReviewsResourcesForums
Espresso: Questions and Answers
Extraction pressure
Find the Right Machine...
Package deals on the best machines from Izzo, Quick Mill, Rocket, La Marzocco & more.
www.clivecoffee.com
 
Not Logged in: Log In to Postlog in
New Topics updated topics   New Posts new posts   Unanswered Posts new unanswered  
Search Discussion Board search   Discussion Board FAQ faq   Signup sign up  
Discussions > Espresso > Q and A > Extraction...  
view previous topic | view next topic | view all topics
showing page 1 of 3 last page next page
Author Messages
kid_drew
Senior Member
kid_drew
Joined: 21 Jan 2009
Posts: 22
Location: Austin, TX
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Breville BES900XL
Grinder: Baratza Preciso
Drip: French press is the closest...
Posted Tue Sep 3, 2013, 6:42pm
Subject: Extraction pressure
 

Hey everyone,
So I just invested in a Breville BES900XL Dual Boiler and a Baratza Virtuoso Preciso grinder.  My skills are pretty decent, and so far I'm extremely impressed with the quality of espresso that I'm able to pull from this machine.  One thing I notice, though, is that I have to pull my shots at between 9.5 and 10 to get a reasonable extraction time of around 25 seconds for a double.  If I pull at 9 bar, the machine will produce a double in 15-20 seconds, the crema will be very light and the espresso will be bitter and bland.  I'm very happy with the results I get at 9.5-10, but I'm wondering if I'm doing something slightly wrong and I might be able to get even better results.

Any advice?
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
NobbyR
Senior Member
NobbyR
Joined: 10 Jul 2011
Posts: 2,058
Location: Germany
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Poccino Opus One, Ariete
Grinder: Eureka Mignon Istantaneo
Vac Pot: N/A
Drip: Melitta Linea Unica de Luxe
Roaster: N/A
Posted Tue Sep 3, 2013, 9:59pm
Subject: Re: Extraction pressure
 

Extraction time is a result of dose, grind and (to a lesser degree) tamping in correlation to extraction pressure, i.e. the higher the dose, the finer the grounds and the harder you tamp the more pressure you need to get a certain flow. Have you tried grinding coarser in order to get the same flow at a lower pressure?

Then again, if you're satisfied with the taste of your espresso, who cares about numbers? Besides, an extraction pressure of 9 1 bar is perfectly within guideline regulations.

 
***
"This drink of the Satan is so delicious that it would be a shame to leave it to the infidels." (Pope Clement VIII on coffee, when he was urged to ban the beverage)
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
CoffeeLoversMag
Senior Member
CoffeeLoversMag
Joined: 10 Jan 2013
Posts: 218
Location: Seattle
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Wed Sep 4, 2013, 12:49am
Subject: Re: Extraction pressure
 

It is very necessary to learn the combination of pressure, temperature, grind, and finishing color works best with the blend. To optimize the taste, you must have an idea of what is the good adjustment. If the adjustment of the brew temperature and the brew pressure is obtain to have better results, then you are one of the best barista.

You are doing right and you are in the way of great improvement. Just record all the adjustment that you had been doing.

 
Did you know...? Dark roast coffees actually have less caffeine than lighter roasts due to the fact that the process of roasting burns off caffeine.
www.coffeeloversmag.com/theMagazine
back to top
 View Profile Visit website Link to this post
calblacksmith
Moderator
calblacksmith
Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 7,949
Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A.
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: ECM Vene. A1, La Cimbali M32
Grinder: Azkoyen Capriccio, Major
Vac Pot: 40s era Silex
Drip: Msl. Com. brewers
Roaster: gave it a try, decided no
Posted Wed Sep 4, 2013, 5:38am
Subject: Re: Extraction pressure
 

kid_drew Said:

Hey everyone,
So I just invested in a Breville BES900XL Dual Boiler and a Baratza Virtuoso Preciso grinder.  My skills are pretty decent, and so far I'm extremely impressed with the quality of espresso that I'm able to pull from this machine.  One thing I notice, though, is that I have to pull my shots at between 9.5 and 10 to get a reasonable extraction time of around 25 seconds for a double.  If I pull at 9 bar, the machine will produce a double in 15-20 seconds, the crema will be very light and the espresso will be bitter and bland.  I'm very happy with the results I get at 9.5-10, but I'm wondering if I'm doing something slightly wrong and I might be able to get even better results.

Any advice?

Posted September 3, 2013 link

Interesting results. I take it that the "bar" you reference is in the brew pressure not temp as that would be impossibly hot. Higher brew pressure will cause a faster shot with all things being equal. I am a little stumped that you get a slower shot with higher pressure ????

The key is in the grind. There are a lot of fancy adjustments on that machine that in my humble opinion, are not need but serve to make it look better to the buyer. Anyway, keep the pressure at 9 bar for brewing and adjust the grind to get a proper timed shot. From there, decide if it needs adjustment in either dose or grind.  The GRINDER is more important than the machine, the GRINDER is the key to great shots and consistency, your grinder is at the starter end of what will work for espresso. It WILL work though. Adjust the grind and leave the machines settings alone and stock. YMMV!

 
In real life, my name is
Wayne P.
Anything I post is personal opinion and is only worth as much as anyone else's personal opinion. YMMV!

Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
back to top
 View Profile Visit website Link to this post
kid_drew
Senior Member
kid_drew
Joined: 21 Jan 2009
Posts: 22
Location: Austin, TX
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Breville BES900XL
Grinder: Baratza Preciso
Drip: French press is the closest...
Posted Wed Sep 4, 2013, 6:22am
Subject: Re: Extraction pressure
 

NobbyR Said:

Extraction time is a result of dose, grind and (to a lesser degree) tamping in correlation to extraction pressure, i.e. the higher the dose, the finer the grounds and the harder you tamp the more pressure you need to get a certain flow. Have you tried grinding coarser in order to get the same flow at a lower pressure?

Then again, if you're satisfied with the taste of your espresso, who cares about numbers? Besides, an extraction pressure of 9 1 bar is perfectly within guideline regulations.

Posted September 3, 2013 link

Agreed on taste being more important than numbers.  I'm just still a newb, particularly with this machine, so I thought I might be able to improve my shots even more with some small tweaks.  I'm still playing with the grind, but so far I've noticed that anytime the machine pulls at 9, regardless of whether it's because I grind courser or just don't tamp as hard, I get light, bitter, bland espresso.  9.5-10 is heaven.

Thanks for the help.
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
kid_drew
Senior Member
kid_drew
Joined: 21 Jan 2009
Posts: 22
Location: Austin, TX
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Breville BES900XL
Grinder: Baratza Preciso
Drip: French press is the closest...
Posted Wed Sep 4, 2013, 6:32am
Subject: Re: Extraction pressure
 

calblacksmith Said:

Interesting results. I take it that the "bar" you reference is in the brew pressure not temp as that would be impossibly hot. Higher brew pressure will cause a faster shot with all things being equal. I am a little stumped that you get a slower shot with higher pressure ????

The key is in the grind. There are a lot of fancy adjustments on that machine that in my humble opinion, are not need but serve to make it look better to the buyer. Anyway, keep the pressure at 9 bar for brewing and adjust the grind to get a proper timed shot. From there, decide if it needs adjustment in either dose or grind.  The GRINDER is more important than the machine, the GRINDER is the key to great shots and consistency, your grinder is at the starter end of what will work for espresso. It WILL work though. Adjust the grind and leave the machines settings alone and stock. YMMV!

Posted September 4, 2013 link

Yes, 9 is the brew pressure.  I'm actually not sure what you mean by 9 being a hot temp.  That doesn't resemble any temperature system that I've encountered.  =)

I'm pulling at a temperature of 198f.  My shots were coming out more bitter than I like with this roast, so I dropped the brew temp by 2 degrees.  That, combined with getting my grind right, has made for a perfectly timed (and very tasty) shot but a brew pressure that is higher than I would expect.

I can't actually adjust the pressure on this machine.  It always pulls at full pressure, so the gauge is really a measure of resistance.  If I grind fine, it pulls at 10 and flows slowly.  If I grind coarse, it pulls at 8 and flows quickly.
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
calblacksmith
Moderator
calblacksmith
Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 7,949
Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A.
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: ECM Vene. A1, La Cimbali M32
Grinder: Azkoyen Capriccio, Major
Vac Pot: 40s era Silex
Drip: Msl. Com. brewers
Roaster: gave it a try, decided no
Posted Wed Sep 4, 2013, 7:17am
Subject: Re: Extraction pressure
 

The gauges on espresso machines for both temp and pump pressure are calibrated in Bar.

A Temp of 9 bar (yes it is a real measurement of temp)
1 bar is 14.5 psi
9 bar is 130.5 psi

A steam table in part (edited to show reliant information) page 51 from Click Here (ir.library.oregonstate.edu)

Table 1. Properties of Steam Relating to Heat Energy

psi                    Boiling point F

0                           212                
10                         240                  
15                         250                  
100                       338                  
250                       407                  
600                       490                  
697                       505                  
1000                     545                  


So a boiler temp of 9 bar  (130.5 psi) is about 345 F,  way too hot to brew with! (thumb nail interpolation, no formulas were used)

 
In real life, my name is
Wayne P.
Anything I post is personal opinion and is only worth as much as anyone else's personal opinion. YMMV!

Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
back to top
 View Profile Visit website Link to this post
emradguy
Senior Member
emradguy
Joined: 31 Mar 2011
Posts: 3,225
Location: Houston
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Duetto II; Twist v2
Grinder: M Major, Macap M4, Pharos,...
Drip: Espro presses; Aeropress
Roaster: H-B "List of Favorites"
Posted Wed Sep 4, 2013, 7:22am
Subject: Re: Extraction pressure
 

If you use the coarser grind but increase your dose, you should get a longer shot at the lower pressure...and it sounds like you want to try that. "Bitter" can come from over extraction as well as temp too hot, so you should consider that as well. As long as you know what your current parameters are, you'll be able to go back to them if any adjustments you make lead to a lower quality shot. I think that was part of what coffeeloversmag was trying to say in his recommendation to write down what you're using now. Amazing he actually provided some useful advice.

 
.
Always remember the most important thing is what ends up in your cup!
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
kid_drew
Senior Member
kid_drew
Joined: 21 Jan 2009
Posts: 22
Location: Austin, TX
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Breville BES900XL
Grinder: Baratza Preciso
Drip: French press is the closest...
Posted Wed Sep 4, 2013, 7:26am
Subject: Re: Extraction pressure
 

Ah, I get it.  

The gauges on "real" espresso machines measure in bar, you mean.  =)
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
kid_drew
Senior Member
kid_drew
Joined: 21 Jan 2009
Posts: 22
Location: Austin, TX
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Breville BES900XL
Grinder: Baratza Preciso
Drip: French press is the closest...
Posted Wed Sep 4, 2013, 7:28am
Subject: Re: Extraction pressure
 

emradguy Said:

If you use the coarser grind but increase your dose, you should get a longer shot at the lower pressure...and it sounds like you want to try that. "Bitter" can come from over extraction as well as temp too hot, so you should consider that as well. As long as you know what your current parameters are, you'll be able to go back to them if any adjustments you make lead to a lower quality shot. I think that was part of what coffeeloversmag was trying to say in his recommendation to write down what you're using now. Amazing he actually provided some useful advice.

Posted September 4, 2013 link

Thanks, trying that right now.
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
showing page 1 of 3 last page next page
view previous topic | view next topic | view all topics
Discussions > Espresso > Q and A > Extraction...  
New Topics updated topics   New Posts new posts   Unanswered Posts new unanswered     Search Discussion Board search   Discussion Board FAQ faq   Signup sign up  
Not Logged in: Log In to Postlog in
Discussions Quick Jump:
Symbols: New Posts= New Posts since your last visit      No New Posts= No New Posts since last visit     Go to most recent post= Newest post
Forum Rules:
No profanity, illegal acts or personal attacks will be tolerated in these discussion boards.
No commercial posting of any nature will be tolerated; only private sales by private individuals, in the "Buy and Sell" forum.
No SEO style postings will be tolerated. SEO related posts will result in immediate ban from CoffeeGeek.
No cross posting allowed - do not post your topic to more than one forum, nor repost a topic to the same forum.
Who Can Read The Forum? Anyone can read posts in these discussion boards.
Who Can Post New Topics? Any registered CoffeeGeek member can post new topics.
Who Can Post Replies? Any registered CoffeeGeek member can post replies.
Can Photos be posted? Anyone can post photos in their new topics or replies.
Who can change or delete posts? Any CoffeeGeek member can edit their own posts. Only moderators can delete posts.
Probationary Period: If you are a new signup for CoffeeGeek, you cannot promote, endorse, criticise or otherwise post an unsolicited endorsement for any company, product or service in your first five postings.
Home Espresso Machines
Watch videos with Gail & Kat, Rocket, Jura Capresso, Saeco, Rancilio, Quick Mill, Nespresso
www.seattlecoffeegear.com
Home | Opinions | Consumer Reviews | Guides & How Tos | CoffeeGeek Reviews | Resources | Forums | Contact Us
CoffeeGeek.com, CoffeeGeek, and Coffee Geek, along with all associated content & images are copyright ©2000-2014 by Mark Prince, all rights reserved, unless otherwise indicated. Content, code, and images may not be reused without permission. Usage of this website signifies agreement with our Terms and Conditions. (0.346951007843)
Privacy Policy | Copyright Info | Terms and Conditions | CoffeeGeek Advertisers | RSS | Find us on Google+