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megabyte
Senior Member


Joined: 9 Apr 2011
Posts: 13
Location: UK
Expertise: Just starting

Posted Sat Dec 14, 2013, 12:40am
Subject: Re: Cleaning a used eBay Gaggia Classic
 

brianl Said:

Do not descale with cafiza. It should be used to backflush and cleaning the portafilter/baskets and stuff only.

Posted December 12, 2013 link

No, I will not. As you can see above I bought Dezcal to descale. Pro and Cons I see of using it, but fingers crossed my decision is not going to cause problems.
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brianl
Senior Member


Joined: 1 Dec 2012
Posts: 409
Location: Chicago IL
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Gaggia Classic (w/PID)
Grinder: Baratza Vario
Drip: chemex
Posted Sun Dec 15, 2013, 11:25am
Subject: Re: Cleaning a used eBay Gaggia Classic
 

try and swing durgol or something that doesn't have citric acid in it. Doesn't play well with aluminum boilers. Even urnex doesn't recommend using their product on the gaggia classic.
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SJM
Senior Member


Joined: 17 Nov 2004
Posts: 1,677
Location: CA
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: SAMA, Gaggia Classic
Grinder: K-10PB, Rancilio MD-50
Vac Pot: no like
Drip: no like
Roaster: HotTop
Posted Sun Dec 15, 2013, 12:07pm
Subject: Re: Cleaning a used eBay Gaggia Classic
 

brianl Said:

try and swing durgol or something that doesn't have citric acid in it. Doesn't play well with aluminum boilers. Even urnex doesn't recommend using their product on the gaggia classic.

Posted December 15, 2013 link

Oh poppycock.
This is just such nonsense.

The best way to descale a Gaggia boiler is to dissolve 2 Tbs of Citric Acid in a quart of warm water and pull it through the machine in 10-15 minute increments.  

Don't use too much.
Don't leave it in there forever.

The only reason Urnex doesn't recommend their product is that they want to sell you a more expensive one.

Click Here (www.gaggiausersgroup.com)
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D4F
Senior Member


Joined: 15 Mar 2012
Posts: 1,879
Location: USA
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Gaggia Classic PID
Grinder: Preciso
Posted Sun Dec 15, 2013, 9:48pm
Subject: Re: Cleaning a used eBay Gaggia Classic
 

This topic is often repeated with controversy, so I will add to it.

Many Gaggia users and their Gaggias are still doing well after years of citric acid. Others use acetic acid.  Tartaric and sulfamic are also used.  I could not find a MSDS for Gaggia OEM decalcifier.  Acids are used to remove scale.  Acids are not good for aluminum.  Scale is not good for the system, so you will likely choose acid(s) :)

This may help, or make the decision more difficult

http://www.urnexbrand.com/products/Dezcal_Tablets.aspx

MSDS for each

Tablet    Citric <60%   Sulfamidic  <15%

Liquid                         Sulfamidic  <20%

Powder   Citric  <60%  Sulfamidic  <5%  Aluminum Sulfate <1%

All say for "for professional technicians and home users" and perhaps the difference is quantity.  I did not see another distinction between home vs commercial and the MSDS is by product name so there does not seem a commercial formula different.  I did not see a specific notation on the site but the Powder with the addition of Aluminum sulfate is probably to help the balance for aluminum boilers.  Aluminum sulfate may push the chemical equation of making aluminum salts from the boiler back to the left and not be as harmful to the boiler, but that is at the far edge of my long ago chemistry.

As long as I was there, Cleaning agents not descalers

Cafiza Powder for backflush

Disodium carbonate, compound with hydrogen peroxide  <20%
Sodium dodecylbenzenesulfonate, pure                          <5%
Sodium carbonate                                                        <5%

Cafiza Tabs for cleaning of superautos, or for backflush

Sodium carbonate                                                         <35%
Disodium carbonate, compound with hydrogen peroxide   <22%
Sulphamidic Acid                                                           <20%

So, choose your own poison :)

Actually all of those are used for a short duration and flushed.  Another concern is the water used.  Too much hardness may increase scale.  Any acidity will not be good for the boiler and will be sitting in the boiler. Distilled and R/O may absorb Carbon dioxide from the air and be acidic.  

Choose your water carefully :)

 
D4F also at
http://www.gaggiausersgroup.com/
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megabyte
Senior Member


Joined: 9 Apr 2011
Posts: 13
Location: UK
Expertise: Just starting

Posted Tue Dec 17, 2013, 4:42am
Subject: Re: Cleaning a used eBay Gaggia Classic
 

Whoa.....that opened up the can of worms again :D

Thanks for all of the advice.  I went with my original list of 'things to do'.   I added to it by running plain water through it,  back-flushing without chemicals, steaming plain water and purging umpteen times because I thought I could still smell the chemicals. I pulled a couple of shots first before finally drinking the third. It probably is in my mind, but I feel that I can taste them still even though I used the minimum amount.

I am going to pull a few more shots through it again today before drinking tomorrow.
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brianl
Senior Member


Joined: 1 Dec 2012
Posts: 409
Location: Chicago IL
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Gaggia Classic (w/PID)
Grinder: Baratza Vario
Drip: chemex
Posted Wed Dec 18, 2013, 9:17am
Subject: Re: Cleaning a used eBay Gaggia Classic
 

SJM Said:

Oh poppycock.
This is just such nonsense.

The best way to descale a Gaggia boiler is to dissolve 2 Tbs of Citric Acid in a quart of warm water and pull it through the machine in 10-15 minute increments.  

Don't use too much.
Don't leave it in there forever.

The only reason Urnex doesn't recommend their product is that they want to sell you a more expensive one.

Click Here (www.gaggiausersgroup.com)

Posted December 15, 2013 link

Urnex doesn't have a non-citric acid based cleaner? At least I wasn't sold a pitch for something bigger and better.

Of course YMMV. So your comment as an absolute is ridiculous but we all have our opinions (have you even used Durgol?). For me, leaving the citric acid in there for a shorter amount of time renders it nearly worthless, as the long time is required.

I've used both, if you have the spare change, durgol is better.
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brianl
Senior Member


Joined: 1 Dec 2012
Posts: 409
Location: Chicago IL
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Gaggia Classic (w/PID)
Grinder: Baratza Vario
Drip: chemex
Posted Wed Dec 18, 2013, 9:20am
Subject: Re: Cleaning a used eBay Gaggia Classic
 

megabyte Said:

Whoa.....that opened up the can of worms again :D

Thanks for all of the advice.  I went with my original list of 'things to do'.   I added to it by running plain water through it,  back-flushing without chemicals, steaming plain water and purging umpteen times because I thought I could still smell the chemicals. I pulled a couple of shots first before finally drinking the third. It probably is in my mind, but I feel that I can taste them still even though I used the minimum amount.

I am going to pull a few more shots through it again today before drinking tomorrow.

Posted December 17, 2013 link

Durgol would be best for you if you're sensitive to the smell of citric acid as it's almost odorless. As for 'tasting them' I have no idea. I usually flush a full tank after descaling and i'm done with it. For backflushes, usually do 5 water only flushes afterwards.
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megabyte
Senior Member


Joined: 9 Apr 2011
Posts: 13
Location: UK
Expertise: Just starting

Posted Wed Dec 18, 2013, 9:45am
Subject: Re: Cleaning a used eBay Gaggia Classic
 

The person who had this machine before me had soft water and I too have soft water, so there was not a lot of scale even after all of these years. OR....maybe it is a good point that if you do not keep it in there long enough, it will not bread down the scale?

Brianl, I had to smile at you doing 5 water only backflushes because I must have done 20 :-D   The same with steaming water and purging.

Yes, I am very sensitive to taste and smell. I just wish my mind would remember because it creates havoc taste testing coffee!
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SJM
Senior Member


Joined: 17 Nov 2004
Posts: 1,677
Location: CA
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: SAMA, Gaggia Classic
Grinder: K-10PB, Rancilio MD-50
Vac Pot: no like
Drip: no like
Roaster: HotTop
Posted Wed Dec 18, 2013, 10:39am
Subject: Re: Cleaning a used eBay Gaggia Classic
 

Here is the MSDS (safety data) for the Durgol:
Click Here (frieling.com)

Primarily is it <15% aminosulfonic acid

which according to Wikipedia is Sulfanic acid
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulfamic_acid

Why it would or should work better than Citric Acid I don't know, but it certainly can't be problematic.

As to having to leave any acid in the boiler for any length of time, that speaks to how regularly you chose to descale, and that decision has to be based on the propensity of your water to develop scale.
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D4F
Senior Member


Joined: 15 Mar 2012
Posts: 1,879
Location: USA
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Gaggia Classic PID
Grinder: Preciso
Posted Wed Dec 18, 2013, 11:11am
Subject: Re: Cleaning a used eBay Gaggia Classic
 

D4F Said:

Many Gaggia users and their Gaggias are still doing well after years of citric acid. Others use acetic acid.  Tartaric and sulfamic are also used.  I could not find a MSDS for Gaggia OEM decalcifier. Acids are used to remove scale. Acids are not good for aluminum.  Scale is not good for the system, so you will likely choose acid(s) :)

So, choose your own poison :)

Posted December 15, 2013 link

Durgol active acid, aminosulfonic acid, is also known as sulfamic, and sulfamidic acid as well as a few others.  Sulfamidic acid is in Dezcal and liquid dezcal is only sulfamidic or sulfamic or aminosulfonic acid.

So liquid Dezcal and Durgol are very similar, round and round we go :)

Choose your own poison :)

 
D4F also at
http://www.gaggiausersgroup.com/
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