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Discussions > Espresso > Q and A > Second batch PID...  
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d33pbluez
Senior Member


Joined: 19 Nov 2013
Posts: 32
Location: Malaysia
Expertise: Just starting

Posted Mon Dec 23, 2013, 9:12am
Subject: Second batch PID question
 

Hi Guys,

Question 1: Need to ask, It is normal for PID to show overshot temp after each brew ? My setting was at 219 F but after a brew i notice it overshot till 240 F before cooling down back to 219 F / 218 F.


Question 2: How do you set timer brew for PID while leave the brew switch turn on without water coming out ? i had seen some of the video of the youtube where they would press the PID to brew coffee instead of immediately brew by turn on the brew switch.

Btw, Happy Holidays

P/S: PID was done on Rancilio Silvia V3 machine
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takeshi
Senior Member
takeshi
Joined: 12 Oct 2002
Posts: 937
Location: Houston
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Alex Duetto 3.0
Grinder: Super Jolly
Roaster: Amaya Roasting
Posted Mon Dec 23, 2013, 1:32pm
Subject: Re: Second batch PID question
 

d33pbluez Said:

Need to ask, It is normal for PID to show overshot temp after each brew ? My setting was at 219 F but after a brew i notice it overshot till 240 F before cooling down back to 219 F / 218 F.

Posted December 23, 2013 link

Definitely not normal.  PID should be able to generally avoid overshoot (especially 20 degrees F of overshoot).
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d33pbluez
Senior Member


Joined: 19 Nov 2013
Posts: 32
Location: Malaysia
Expertise: Just starting

Posted Mon Dec 23, 2013, 4:41pm
Subject: Re: Second batch PID question
 

takeshi Said:

Definitely not normal.  PID should be able to generally avoid overshoot (especially 20 degrees F of overshoot).

Posted December 23, 2013 link

Hi takeshi,

Could the problem due to wiring ? Or it is something that i miss. Hoping that you can help to shed some light.
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dana_leighton
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dana_leighton
Joined: 11 Jan 2002
Posts: 1,915
Location: Little Rock, AR
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Isomac Relax; Caferina...
Grinder: Macap MXK; Baratza Vario-W;...
Vac Pot: Yama 5-cup
Drip: Technivorm; CCD; Melitta
Roaster: Poppery I w/PID controller
Posted Mon Dec 23, 2013, 6:54pm
Subject: Re: Second batch PID question
 

It is "normal" in the respect that the tuning of the P, I, & D parameters will affect the overshoot/undershoot. You might start with the boiler temperature a dozen degrees or so below what you want the Set Value to be, and do an Autotune. That is a beginning - see how the over/undershoot performs, and try adjusting the parameters to see what works best.

I have mine set to ramp slowly up to the SV temp, and overshoot is minimal, and recovery time after a shot is also short.

Depending on if you bought a kit or are rolling your own, you could ask the vendor as well.

You might see some of these threads:
Click Here (www.home-barista.com)
Click Here (www.home-barista.com)

 
Dana Leighton - Espresso hack and CoffeeGeek moderator
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d33pbluez
Senior Member


Joined: 19 Nov 2013
Posts: 32
Location: Malaysia
Expertise: Just starting

Posted Mon Dec 23, 2013, 7:26pm
Subject: Re: Second batch PID question
 

dana_leighton Said:

It is "normal" in the respect that the tuning of the P, I, & D parameters will affect the overshoot/undershoot. You might start with the boiler temperature a dozen degrees or so below what you want the Set Value to be, and do an Autotune. That is a beginning - see how the over/undershoot performs, and try adjusting the parameters to see what works best.

I have mine set to ramp slowly up to the SV temp, and overshoot is minimal, and recovery time after a shot is also short.

Depending on if you bought a kit or are rolling your own, you could ask the vendor as well.

You might see some of these threads:
Click Here (www.home-barista.com)
Click Here (www.home-barista.com)

Posted December 23, 2013 link

Thanks for the advice dana_leighton... Mind share your setting as for my reference ?

Any idea how to set timer control brew for PID while leave the brew switch turn on without water coming out ? i had seen some of the video of the youtube where they would press the PID to brew coffee instead turn on the brew switch.
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D4F
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Joined: 15 Mar 2012
Posts: 1,897
Location: USA
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Gaggia Classic PID
Grinder: Preciso
Posted Mon Dec 23, 2013, 8:06pm
Subject: Re: Second batch PID question
 

What PID do you have?  In your first thread you mentioned an Auber PID.  Auber kit for brew, brew+steam, or Brew+steam+preinfusion?  The Kit that has brew/pump turned on by the PID controller is the kit with Preinfusion.  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1wAQNH1lYs

If you have an Auber kit and are getting 20F overshoot, check your install and check with Auber.  They pre-program the PID values.  RTD sensor and thermopaste used? Wires tight on the PID and at the SSR?

 
D4F also at
http://www.gaggiausersgroup.com/
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dana_leighton
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dana_leighton
Joined: 11 Jan 2002
Posts: 1,915
Location: Little Rock, AR
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Isomac Relax; Caferina...
Grinder: Macap MXK; Baratza Vario-W;...
Vac Pot: Yama 5-cup
Drip: Technivorm; CCD; Melitta
Roaster: Poppery I w/PID controller
Posted Mon Dec 23, 2013, 8:23pm
Subject: Re: Second batch PID question
 

d33pbluez Said:

Thanks for the advice dana_leighton... Mind share your setting as for my reference ?

Posted December 23, 2013 link

It is in storage so can't get to it right now. Besides, mine is installed on a Solis SL-70 not a Silvia, and so the parameters would very likely be different anyway.

 
Dana Leighton - Espresso hack and CoffeeGeek moderator
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d33pbluez
Senior Member


Joined: 19 Nov 2013
Posts: 32
Location: Malaysia
Expertise: Just starting

Posted Mon Dec 23, 2013, 8:34pm
Subject: Re: Second batch PID question
 

dana_leighton Said:

It is in storage so can't get to it right now. Besides, mine is installed on a Solis SL-70 not a Silvia, and so the parameters would very likely be different anyway.

Posted December 23, 2013 link

I see... Thanks for the explanation dana_leighton on the first question and happy holiday to you.

Edited:

I had miss out D4F post ealier...

D4F Said:

What PID do you have?  In your first thread you mentioned an Auber PID.  Auber kit for brew, brew+steam, or Brew+steam+preinfusion?  The Kit that has brew/pump turned on by the PID controller is the kit with Preinfusion.  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1wAQNH1lYs

If you have an Auber kit and are getting 20F overshoot, check your install and check with Auber.  They pre-program the PID values.  RTD sensor and thermopaste used? Wires tight on the PID and at the SSR?

Posted December 23, 2013 link

Sorry i miss out some point. I brought the one with brew+steam (No pre-infusion)...so that means mine doesn't not have the brew/pump function ?

Here are the checklist:

1.) Check your install and check with Auber

Everything works fine first turn on. After brew it when over shot mode quite quick then slowly die down to my pre-setting which is at 219F...which stays constant of -1F / +2F until the next brew.

2.) They pre-program the PID values

I only manage to change the SV but leave others to factory setting.

3.) RTD sensor and thermopaste used?

Cant find any loose on the RTD sensor after some pushing, while thermopaste is used.

4.) Wires tight on the PID and at the SSR?

Everything was intact no lose, LED on SSR was lit up as usual when turn on.
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D4F
Senior Member


Joined: 15 Mar 2012
Posts: 1,897
Location: USA
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Gaggia Classic PID
Grinder: Preciso
Posted Mon Dec 23, 2013, 9:48pm
Subject: Re: Second batch PID question
 

You will not have the pump controlled at the PID.  

20F seems like too much overshoot, but I am used to Gaggia.  Different boiler configuration and different values. While a PID can be set to stop overshoot, that is not always the desired control for espresso. Espresso machine control can allow for some overshoot which may allow faster heating, and a little oscillation.  In industry where a product could be destroyed by a degree or too high over SV, then you would need to program for no overshoot.  I would watch it and see how much over and under shoot, and how long the oscillation lasts.  You can check with Auber after you collect a few observations and have checked all of your install to eliminate any possible errors.

 
D4F also at
http://www.gaggiausersgroup.com/
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d33pbluez
Senior Member


Joined: 19 Nov 2013
Posts: 32
Location: Malaysia
Expertise: Just starting

Posted Mon Dec 23, 2013, 11:18pm
Subject: Re: Second batch PID question
 

D4F Said:

You will not have the pump controlled at the PID.  

20F seems like too much overshoot, but I am used to Gaggia.  Different boiler configuration and different values. While a PID can be set to stop overshoot, that is not always the desired control for espresso. Espresso machine control can allow for some overshoot which may allow faster heating, and a little oscillation.  In industry where a product could be destroyed by a degree or too high over SV, then you would need to program for no overshoot.  I would watch it and see how much over and under shoot, and how long the oscillation lasts.  You can check with Auber after you collect a few observations and have checked all of your install to eliminate any possible errors.

Posted December 23, 2013 link

Thanks D4F, I had already contacted Auber on this issue. Currently troubleshooting the problem.

Happy holiday to you. :)
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