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Burn the coffe also if it comes out in less than 20 seconds.
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Discussions > Espresso > Q and A > Burn the coffe...  
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consenso
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Joined: 13 Oct 2013
Posts: 8
Location: Italy
Expertise: Just starting

Posted Thu Dec 26, 2013, 7:39pm
Subject: Burn the coffe also if it comes out in less than 20 seconds.
 

Hi to all, I bought a Bacchi Espresso. I used it before with a blend with few arabica coffee. just 30%. Now I have a new blend with 60% arabica coffee.

With the first one I got the best coffee I ever drunk, 25 ml in 25 seconds. With the second blend I get a coffe running very fast and burn a little bit.

How is it possible? I put more coffee in the filter and it came out a little bit slower but always burn.

Today I tried to open the water before for to have a temperature colder than 90 degrees. but it is the right way?

Sorry for my english.
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NobbyR
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NobbyR
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Posted Sat Dec 28, 2013, 5:12am
Subject: Re: Burn the coffe also if it comes out in less than 20 seconds.
 

Do you have a grinder or do you use pre-ground coffee? Different beans or blends usually need a different grinder setting and sometimes a different brewing temperature in order to get optimal extraction. Besides, what you have is rather a differenet kind of moka pot (much like a Bialetti Moka Express) than a propper espresso machine, which means that it will probably tend to reach temperatures that are even above 100°C.

Here are a few tips for working with a moka pot:
  • Fill in hot water. This shortens the heat up time, and the coffee grounds won't be cooked as long as when you have to warm the whole pot with cold water.
  • Fill the filter basket to the rim and only press the grounds slightly with your finger. Do not use a tamper.
  • Only use medium heat on your cooktop in order to prevent burning the coffee grounds completely. A tradional electric stove or gas stove works better than a ceramic cooktop, because they deliver continuous heat instead of pulse heating.
  • Observe your moka pot and take it off the stove when the coffee starts to run in a steady flow. The residual heat will be enough to finish the brewing process. This prevents burning the coffee too much. Some people cool the pot with cold water at the end to stop extraction resulting in a bolder taste.
  • Prewarm your cups. That way the moka doesn't get cold so fast.
  • Darker roasts (like Italian or Torrefacto) tend to be less temperature sensitive than lighter roasts (city or full city). Moka is not for third wave coffee.

And always use freshly ground coffee.

 
***
"This drink of the Satan is so delicious that it would be a shame to leave it to the infidels." (Pope Clement VIII on coffee, when he was urged to ban the beverage)
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consenso
Senior Member


Joined: 13 Oct 2013
Posts: 8
Location: Italy
Expertise: Just starting

Posted Sat Dec 28, 2013, 4:56pm
Subject: Re: Burn the coffe also if it comes out in less than 20 seconds.
 

Thank you for the reply I think you helped me to resolve everything. But, please, let me to say you wrong absolutely considering the Bacchi like a Moka. A Bialetti Moka doesn't reach 9 BAR and I am italian and I never seen a moka makes a coffe like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vwX8LxX9Bc


Anyway, yes I use a grinder (manual one a Porlex Mini) and last time I got better results opening the valve before than usually I did.

In fact, like you say, these coffee beans are less dark than the first blend I used, so maybe they need less temperature.

I can only works on the temperature and quantity of coffee I put in, because as you know Porlex grinder cannot help me choosing many level of grinding.
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boar_d_laze
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Joined: 21 Nov 2006
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Espresso: La Cimbali M21 DT/1 Junior...
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Posted Sat Dec 28, 2013, 6:40pm
Subject: Re: Burn the coffe also if it comes out in less than 20 seconds.
 

Sometimes words don't translate from one language to another very well.  When you said your coffee tasted "burnt,"  I wasn't quite sure what you meant.  

If "burnt" means "bitter," it's probably the result of brewing too hot.  With a little research I learned the Bacchi is very sensitive to how quickly it's heated, and that the ideal warm up time is 6 to 7 minutes.

The idea is to get the brew water to the right temperature at the same time there's enough pressure in the hydraulic cylinder to operate the pump.  Apparently, if your preheat is too short or too long by more than a few seconds, bad results follow.  

Obviously, it's going to take some practice to get the right stove settings for consistent warm up times

NobbyR Said:

Besides, what you have is rather a different kind of moka pot (much like a Bialetti Moka Express) than a proper espresso machine, which means that it will probably tend to reach temperatures that are even above 100°C.

Posted December 28, 2013 link

This is wrong in two ways:  

First, the Bacchi is a true espresso machine, which uses a Brahmah press to force the brew water through the puck.  A Bacchi is nothing at all like a moka pot.  

Second, because the water in the pump cylinder is hot enough to expand and operate the pump before water in the brew cylinder reaches the boiling point, it's far more difficult to get a Bacchi's brew water above 100C, than to do the same with an HX or non-PID SBDU.
BDL
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NobbyR
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NobbyR
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Posted Sun Dec 29, 2013, 4:40am
Subject: Re: Burn the coffe also if it comes out in less than 20 seconds.
 

boar_d_laze Said:

First, the Bacchi is a true espresso machine, which uses a Brahmah press to force the brew water through the puck.  A Bacchi is nothing at all like a moka pot.  

Second, because the water in the pump cylinder is hot enough to expand and operate the pump before water in the brew cylinder reaches the boiling point, it's far more difficult to get a Bacchi's brew water above 100°C, than to do the same with an HX or non-PID SBDU.

Posted December 28, 2013 link

We are talking about this machine, aren't we? As far as I understand it is indeed a stove top machine much like a moka pot. There is no pump involved, only what the manufacturer calls a pressure multiplier, which is discribed as "valves that control the operation of the machine, and an opening for the water to be used to make coffee". In a pressurized system like the steam boiler of an HX machine or a moka pot or a pressure cokker, it's quite easy to reach water temperatures well abouve 100°C. But let's assume the Bacchi Espresso really works at 9 bar and around 90°C as promised.

 
***
"This drink of the Satan is so delicious that it would be a shame to leave it to the infidels." (Pope Clement VIII on coffee, when he was urged to ban the beverage)
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consenso
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Joined: 13 Oct 2013
Posts: 8
Location: Italy
Expertise: Just starting

Posted Sun Dec 29, 2013, 7:05am
Subject: Re: Burn the coffe also if it comes out in less than 20 seconds.
 

When I wrote the coffee is burnt I meant that the last drop of coffee leaves in the centre a white point  and I read that when the coffee is burnt the typical white point you will see in the centre.

About the Bacchi, it has similar to the moka machines just the fact it works on the fire.
The Bacchi has 2 "boilers", in the first one I put just 50-60 cl of water and this is used just to produces the steam to push up the piston. The piston push up the water I put in the second "boiler" and this water will go through the coffee. So on the fire is just the first boiler.

In a Moka machine there is just one boiler and the water on the fire will go through the coffee, I don't know anything about coffee machines, but I think there is a big difference between.



About the 6-7 minutes I need to produce the coffee I respect this time, just there are two differents blends I am using. The first one (using the same grinding level) gave me a very good coffee using just 15,8 gr of beans, this one I need for example 17.5 gr.
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boar_d_laze
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Joined: 21 Nov 2006
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Location: Monrovia, CA
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: La Cimbali M21 DT/1 Junior...
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Vac Pot: Royal Coffee Maker
Drip: Chemex + Kone; Espro Press
Roaster: USRC Sample Roaster
Posted Sun Dec 29, 2013, 1:54pm
Subject: Re: Burn the coffe also if it comes out in less than 20 seconds.
 

NobbyR Said:

We are talking about this machine, aren't we?

Posted December 29, 2013 link

Yes.

As far as I understand it is indeed a stove top machine much like a moka pot.

True to stove top.  False to moka pot.

There is no pump involved, only what the manufacturer calls a pressure multiplier, which is discribed as "valves that control the operation of the machine, and an opening for the water to be used to make coffee".

Not exactly. There's no reciprocating, rotary or any other type of "pull, push pump."  Instead the Bacchi is "push" only, using Pacal's Principle to force pressurized water through the puck with a "Brahmah press" arrangement.

In a pressurized system like the steam boiler of an HX machine or a moka pot or a pressure cokker, it's quite easy to reach water temperatures well abouve 100°C. But let's assume the Bacchi Espresso really works at 9 bar and around 90°C as promised.

Let's shall.  

Here's how Doug Garret of Orphan Espresso, and a former Bacchi dealer described it:

We generally think that the Bacchi has been misunderstood from the beginning.....after all, it has been around for 5 years at least that we know of. The inventor/designer originally called it "La Carioca".

As you look at the machine imagine it as a single group, but upside down. If you were to turn it upside down and put a portafilter on it instead of the top part with the spouts it would be much clearer how the machine works. The physics of heat transfer to the brew water in the cylinder is quite well worked out. The spring that is visible is a bit deceiving since it is not the active force for extraction....the spring basically counters the initial pressure application from the force from below, which is supplied by the boiling water in the bottom sealed chamber. This counter spring provides a short but effective pressure profiling before extraction is at full pressure. The spring also serves to return the piston (located in the body of the machine, inside the cylinder) to the down position when setting up the machine for brewing.

Once the machine is assembled the bottom part is the boiler and power source (steam power) and inside that chamber are 3 pressure valves which vent into the body under the piston. One valve is set to release steam at a pressure just below ideal extraction (it serves as a small warning hiss) and the second valve is set to create a whistle sound at the extraction pressure and the third valve is an overpressure safety valve. When the extraction pressure is reached (and yes, this takes about 6 minutes when the heat source is set properly) the steam powered piston is activated by opening the valve above the filter basket and the piston is forced upwards by steam power pushing the heated extraction water through the coffee and voila!

The 54mm basket is rated to hold 15 grams and uses no tamper. The group, as it were, is self tamping and when set up properly there is no air space throughout the extraction column. After extraction the puck is compressed quite densely and upon disassembly only a small fraction of the water in the brew cylinder has been used in the brew process.

Steam wand...no. Hot plate, sure. The only requirement for the heat source is that is hot enough to get the time window right (which has as much to do with the proper brew temp of the water in the cylinder as anything) and that the heat is applied over the entire bottom surface...the rule of thumb is that the flame should be the same size as the outer diameter of base of the machine, so an electric element would serve just as well.

And as Doug continued: Hope this helps demystify it a bit,
BDL
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NobbyR
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NobbyR
Joined: 10 Jul 2011
Posts: 1,991
Location: Germany
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Poccino Opus One, Ariete
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Vac Pot: N/A
Drip: Melitta Linea Unica de Luxe
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Posted Tue Dec 31, 2013, 2:21am
Subject: Re: Burn the coffe also if it comes out in less than 20 seconds.
 

Anyone who has ever worked a lever machine knows how much physical force, in that particular case muscle strength, it takes to build up 9 bar extraction pressure, puck resistance playing a big Part. A moka pot usually works at around 1.5 bar. The steam boiler of an HX machine is at 1.2 to 1.4 bar and well above boiling temperature (at athmospheric pressure). I still find it hard to believe that the Bacchi can build up 9 bar at 90 degrees.

 
***
"This drink of the Satan is so delicious that it would be a shame to leave it to the infidels." (Pope Clement VIII on coffee, when he was urged to ban the beverage)
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boar_d_laze
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Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 726
Location: Monrovia, CA
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: La Cimbali M21 DT/1 Junior...
Grinder: Ceado E92; "Bunnzilla"
Vac Pot: Royal Coffee Maker
Drip: Chemex + Kone; Espro Press
Roaster: USRC Sample Roaster
Posted Tue Dec 31, 2013, 10:43am
Subject: Re: Burn the coffe also if it comes out in less than 20 seconds.
 

NobbyR Said:

Anyone who has ever worked a lever machine knows how much physical force, in that particular case muscle strength, it takes to build up 9 bar extraction pressure, puck resistance playing a big Part. A moka pot usually works at around 1.5 Bar. The steam boiler of an HX machine is at 1.2 to 1.4 bar and well above boiling temperature (at athmospheric pressure). I still find it. Hard to believe that the Bacchi can build up 9 bar at 90 degrees.

Posted December 31, 2013 link

There are so many things wrong in this statement.  The three most egregious are: (1) A basic non-understanding of hydraulics; (2) The "strawman argument" you created by supplying a standard which goes beyond your "it's a Mokapot" error; and (3) A persistent and false belief that the water in the pressure chamber is the same as the water as in the brewing chamber.

The Bacchi generates pressure for the hydraulic press at a considerably higher temperature than 90C; however the Bacchi is designed so that, when operated properly, the temperature of the brew water IS around 90C.  If you want to know how much pressure a little hot water can generate, you'll have to acquaint yourself with Boyle's Ideal Gas Law, Pascal's Principle and the workings of hydraulic (aka "Brahmah") presses (as my repetition of the words is insufficient to convince you).    

The chambers are discrete.  Water does not flow between them.

The temperature of the water in the lower chamber which creates the pressure to operate the hydraulic press is not necessarily the same as the temperature of the water in the "brew chamber," which is forced through the puck.


However, if you allow the warm up to progress too slowly, the lower chamber and brew chamber temperatures will come to equilibrium.  Conversely, if you warm up too quickly, the lower chamber will come to pressure before the brew chamber comes to temp.  The trick with the Bacchi is getting the right amount of pressure in the bottom chamber at the same time you get the right temperature in the brew chamber.  Here, the OP seemingly overheated the brew water too hot by screwing up the warmup.  

BDL
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calblacksmith
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Posted Tue Dec 31, 2013, 12:40pm
Subject: Re: Burn the coffe also if it comes out in less than 20 seconds.
 

Comment edited by author.
For thread context, I am leaving the following statement but I no longer feel it applies .

Vorsicht, ich weiß, es kann frustrierend sein, aber persönliche Angriffe sind nicht erlaubt sein.

 
In real life, my name is
Wayne P.
Anything I post is personal opinion and is only worth as much as anyone else's personal opinion. YMMV!

Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
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