Our Valued Sponsor
OpinionsConsumer ReviewsGuides and How TosCoffeeGeek ReviewsResourcesForums
Espresso: Questions and Answers
From pf to bottom of cup distance?
Donate to Coffee Kids
Coffee Kids works with farming communities around the world, improving lives. Donate today.
www.coffeekids.org
 
Not Logged in: Log In to Postlog in
New Topics updated topics   New Posts new posts   Unanswered Posts new unanswered  
Search Discussion Board search   Discussion Board FAQ faq   Signup sign up  
Discussions > Espresso > Q and A > From pf to...  
view previous topic | view next topic | view all topics
Author Messages
SproBro
Senior Member


Joined: 11 Feb 2014
Posts: 63
Location: Topeka, KS
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: CC1 v1.5
Grinder: Compak K10PB, Vario
Posted Tue Feb 11, 2014, 12:36pm
Subject: From pf to bottom of cup distance?
 

After just having obtained my first espresso machine, and learning the ropes to espresso (delicious results after I got my grinder dialed in), one question cropped up. (I'm using a bottomless pf)

Are there reasons for the bottom of the cup to be a certain distance from the pour? There are a few reasons I ask this-
1.The farther the cup the more air contact the coffee is making.
2.The farther the cup the more impact/splattering seems to occur.
3.Maybe this could have an impact on texture and coverage of the crema (impact on latte art ,and mouthfeel of crema)?
4.I'm probably over analyzing the situation.
5.I've noticed in many videos, some either have the espresso fall smack into the cup rather nonchalantly, or gently run down the sides.

I will experiment for myself because its far more fun, but hey why not ask a bunch of folks who are (at least) as crazy as I am? ;)
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
calblacksmith
Moderator
calblacksmith
Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 7,745
Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A.
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: ECM Vene. A1, La Cimbali M32
Grinder: Azkoyen Capriccio, Major
Vac Pot: 40s era Silex
Drip: Msl. Com. brewers
Roaster: gave it a try, decided no
Posted Tue Feb 11, 2014, 2:06pm
Subject: Re: From pf to bottom of cup distance?
 

Hi and welcome.

I actually prefer my La Cimbali to my ECM E61 grouped machine simply because it has more room under the group. Both machines can pull great shots and I love the E61 vs the La Cimbali group for the pre infusion that it has.

Most machines are designed around an espresso cup or about 2 to 3 oz and will fit an 8 oz Latte cup. I don't think there is much more of a reason than the machine is made to fit the drinks desired.

Honestly, I do not pay much attention to where in the cup the espresso falls, as long as it is in there, I am good !

 
In real life, my name is
Wayne P.
Anything I post is personal opinion and is only worth as much as anyone else's personal opinion. YMMV!

Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
back to top
 View Profile Visit website Link to this post
DanoM
Senior Member


Joined: 20 Mar 2013
Posts: 359
Location: Los Angeles
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Bezzera Strega, '84 La...
Grinder: Compak K10, Kludge grinder,...
Posted Tue Feb 11, 2014, 2:34pm
Subject: Re: From pf to bottom of cup distance?
 

Distance from the portafilter to the cup can make a difference in crema from what I've read.  A longer fall will destroy more crema foam.  Some who pull for espresso shots do claim a naked portafilter and a long drop cools the espresso too much for their liking.  I've not had problems with either of these, but I may not be that sensitive either.

As far as dripping into the middle of the cup or down the sides I usually pull for the center, but if I want to see the extraction as it flows and I'm pulling with a naked portafilter the side of the cup is a good place to watch more details.
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
emradguy
Senior Member
emradguy
Joined: 31 Mar 2011
Posts: 3,068
Location: Houston
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Duetto II; Twist v2
Grinder: M Major, Macap M4 x2, VDD...
Drip: Espro presses; Aeropress
Roaster: H-B "List of Favorites"
Posted Tue Feb 11, 2014, 3:21pm
Subject: Re: From pf to bottom of cup distance?
 

SproBro Said:

After just having obtained my first espresso machine, and learning the ropes to espresso (delicious results after I got my grinder dialed in), one question cropped up. (I'm using a bottomless pf)

Are there reasons for the bottom of the cup to be a certain distance from the pour? There are a few reasons I ask this-
1.The farther the cup the more air contact the coffee is making.
2.The farther the cup the more impact/splattering seems to occur.
3.Maybe this could have an impact on texture and coverage of the crema (impact on latte art ,and mouthfeel of crema)?
4.I'm probably over analyzing the situation.
5.I've noticed in many videos, some either have the espresso fall smack into the cup rather nonchalantly, or gently run down the sides.

I will experiment for myself because its far more fun, but hey why not ask a bunch of folks who are (at least) as crazy as I am? ;)

Posted February 11, 2014 link

Not to belittle your question, as I think it's something worth thinking about, but to me...this is ultra-micro-management.  About on par with getting a VST refractometer.  ...and since I'm currently going through the thought process of whether I want a VST refractometer...I tend to think this is something that should be paid attention to at some point in the climb to espresso nirvana. Like Wayne, I actually haven't paid much attention to how far the tail drops into the cup or whether it falls into the center of the cup or runs down the sides.  I'm interested in hearing what you find.  I would think it would indeed affect mouthfeel, at the very least, and perhaps flavor to some degree as well. I, too, am doubtful whether any manufacturer has put this much thought into it.

 
.
Always remember the most important thing is what ends up in your cup!
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
yakster
Senior Member
yakster
Joined: 25 Feb 2009
Posts: 1,035
Location: San Jose, CA
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Gaggia Factory / La Peppina...
Grinder: Vario / Kyocera
Vac Pot: Yama 8 + Pyrex Lox-in Rod
Drip: Brazen / Kalita / Chemex /...
Roaster: Behmor
Posted Tue Feb 11, 2014, 6:13pm
Subject: Re: From pf to bottom of cup distance?
 

Oh, I bet the manufacturers have put some thought into this.  Do a search on Faema Tall Cups and you'll see espresso machines designed to accommodate tall cups.  If it wasn't that big a deal, they wouldn't offer different models and just make all their machines with more clearance.

I've seen more than one barista put a demitasse on something else (like and upside-down cup) to get it closer to the portafilter spouts on a commercial machine.  In once instance, at Broken Door Espresso in San Jose, it was an outdoor stand and they were battling a cold, windy day, so it helped keep the temps up.

 
-Chris

LMWDP # 272
back to top
 View Profile Visit website Link to this post
boar_d_laze
Senior Member


Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 1,220
Location: Monrovia, CA
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: La Cimbali M21 DT/1 Junior...
Grinder: Ceado E92; "Bunnzilla"
Vac Pot: Royal Coffee Maker
Drip: Chemex + Kone; Espro Press
Roaster: USRC Sample Roaster
Posted Tue Feb 11, 2014, 7:29pm
Subject: Re: From pf to bottom of cup distance?
 

yakster Said:

Oh, I bet the manufacturers have put some thought into this.

Posted February 11, 2014 link

Sure they have.  

Some manufacturers offer standard-drop and tall-cup variants for their commercial machines.  Some times they just wet a finger, stick it in the wind, choose and hope.

Elektra Sixties series (including the T1) used to be tall-cup.  Back in the day, Elektra used to ship them with a bizarre looking extended spout which screwed onto the pf for straight-shots.  Unfortunately the coffee still got cold, so Elektra got rid of the extensions and started shipping the Sixties with little cup stands.

I can't say for sure if T1s are still tall cup and if they still ship with the stand.  

Where to Aim?  Bottom or Side?
It doesn't matter a great deal where you start, because before long the stream will be hitting the top of the shot; exactly as it should do.  I can learn as much or more about the pour as it develops by observing the top of the shot than I can from watching the stream.  

Going Naked:
I'm intrigued by Dano's remark about aiming his naked portafilter at the side of the cup.  When I use mine, the pull always starts with drops from various parts of the basket which eventually coalesce into a single stream -- hopefully sooner rather than later.  The best I can do is center the cup under the basket and hope against spritzers.

Rich
back to top
 View Profile Visit website Link to this post
emradguy
Senior Member
emradguy
Joined: 31 Mar 2011
Posts: 3,068
Location: Houston
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Duetto II; Twist v2
Grinder: M Major, Macap M4 x2, VDD...
Drip: Espro presses; Aeropress
Roaster: H-B "List of Favorites"
Posted Tue Feb 11, 2014, 8:12pm
Subject: Re: From pf to bottom of cup distance?
 

sorry, i wasn't more clear. what I meant was not much thought into whether the stream hits the side or center of the cup.  i did not mean to imply they don't consider cup heights.

 
.
Always remember the most important thing is what ends up in your cup!
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
DanoM
Senior Member


Joined: 20 Mar 2013
Posts: 359
Location: Los Angeles
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Bezzera Strega, '84 La...
Grinder: Compak K10, Kludge grinder,...
Posted Wed Feb 12, 2014, 8:28am
Subject: Re: From pf to bottom of cup distance?
 

boar_d_laze Said:

Going Naked:
I'm intrigued by Dano's remark about aiming his naked portafilter at the side of the cup.  When I use mine, the pull always starts with drops from various parts of the basket which eventually coalesce into a single stream -- hopefully sooner rather than later.  The best I can do is center the cup under the basket and hope against spritzers.

Posted February 11, 2014 link

Well, I do start my pull with the cup centered so the initial drops are all hitting inside.  Once the stream coalesces I can then move the cup to the side and watch the stream as it runs down the edge of the white porcelain.  Since I generally only use the naked portafilter that's how I handle this.
As far as spritzing goes I rarely have that anymore as I always wisk my espresso grind.  (Made my own wisk for quick, modified WDT I guess.)

When I pull espresso for myself, espresso or cappuccino, I don't usually look at the stream on the side of the cup.  When I pull for my wife's latte into one of those bowl sized cups I tend to watch the stream on the side of the cup to know when to cut the extraction - I also count time.  I just can't judge volume very well on that bowl of a cup, so watching the stream really helps sometimes.
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
emradguy
Senior Member
emradguy
Joined: 31 Mar 2011
Posts: 3,068
Location: Houston
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Duetto II; Twist v2
Grinder: M Major, Macap M4 x2, VDD...
Drip: Espro presses; Aeropress
Roaster: H-B "List of Favorites"
Posted Wed Feb 12, 2014, 8:56am
Subject: Re: From pf to bottom of cup distance?
 

DanoM Said:

Well, I do start my pull with the cup centered so the initial drops are all hitting inside.  Once the stream coalesces I can then move the cup to the side and watch the stream as it runs down the edge of the white porcelain.  Since I generally only use the naked portafilter that's how I handle this.
As far as spritzing goes I rarely have that anymore as I always wisk my espresso grind.  (Made my own wisk for quick, modified WDT I guess.)

Posted February 12, 2014 link

ditto!

DanoM Said:

When I pull espresso for myself, espresso or cappuccino, I don't usually look at the stream on the side of the cup.  When I pull for my wife's latte into one of those bowl sized cups I tend to watch the stream on the side of the cup to know when to cut the extraction - I also count time.  I just can't judge volume very well on that bowl of a cup, so watching the stream really helps sometimes.

Posted February 12, 2014 link

Intersting!  In my house it's opposite.  My family (wife and inlaws) judges their espresso based milk drink almost solely by frothed milk quality, and they use less coffee to milk than I do.  They also can barely tell the difference been a god shot and a sink shot - despite me making drinks for them for 10 years. So, I put all the efforts of dialing in and assessing based on my shots, and just give them some espresso in their milk.

 
.
Always remember the most important thing is what ends up in your cup!
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
view previous topic | view next topic | view all topics
Discussions > Espresso > Q and A > From pf to...  
New Topics updated topics   New Posts new posts   Unanswered Posts new unanswered     Search Discussion Board search   Discussion Board FAQ faq   Signup sign up  
Not Logged in: Log In to Postlog in
Discussions Quick Jump:
Symbols: New Posts= New Posts since your last visit      No New Posts= No New Posts since last visit     Go to most recent post= Newest post
Forum Rules:
No profanity, illegal acts or personal attacks will be tolerated in these discussion boards.
No commercial posting of any nature will be tolerated; only private sales by private individuals, in the "Buy and Sell" forum.
No SEO style postings will be tolerated. SEO related posts will result in immediate ban from CoffeeGeek.
No cross posting allowed - do not post your topic to more than one forum, nor repost a topic to the same forum.
Who Can Read The Forum? Anyone can read posts in these discussion boards.
Who Can Post New Topics? Any registered CoffeeGeek member can post new topics.
Who Can Post Replies? Any registered CoffeeGeek member can post replies.
Can Photos be posted? Anyone can post photos in their new topics or replies.
Who can change or delete posts? Any CoffeeGeek member can edit their own posts. Only moderators can delete posts.
Probationary Period: If you are a new signup for CoffeeGeek, you cannot promote, endorse, criticise or otherwise post an unsolicited endorsement for any company, product or service in your first five postings.
Rancilio Silvia - How to
Step by step guide for easy brewing and steaming with the Rancilio Silvia
www.seattlecoffeegear.com
Home | Opinions | Consumer Reviews | Guides & How Tos | CoffeeGeek Reviews | Resources | Forums | Contact Us
CoffeeGeek.com, CoffeeGeek, and Coffee Geek, along with all associated content & images are copyright ©2000-2014 by Mark Prince, all rights reserved, unless otherwise indicated. Content, code, and images may not be reused without permission. Usage of this website signifies agreement with our Terms and Conditions. (0.317489147186)
Privacy Policy | Copyright Info | Terms and Conditions | CoffeeGeek Advertisers | RSS | Find us on Google+