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Ristretto & Lungo extactions? What to look for with a Bottomless PF/NPF?
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Discussions > Espresso > Q and A > Ristretto &...  
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EQUII
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EQUII
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Posted Tue Mar 18, 2014, 2:35pm
Subject: Ristretto & Lungo extactions? What to look for with a Bottomless PF/NPF?
 

Im a coffee newbie!! I've been practicing for about a year now, And would love some advice on what to look for wile pulling a Ristretto & Lungo using a Bottomless or N/PF? Ive now got to the point were I'm getting decent extractions on 15-17g double shot espresso's 25-27sec.  (This is were I've found the sweet spot on my classic) 70% of the time.

However, when I try to fine up my grind for a Ristretto, I get very little crema, and just a bland (citric smelling) off taste extraction with a light creamy color coming out of the NPF, & No beautiful Tiger striping that I normally get..  I make doubles Ristrettos, My single basket is pressurized, and have yet to get a non-pressurized one yet.
So I get a yield of close to 3oz in 24-31 secs.

I have better success with lungos, (~4.75oz yield/45s-55s). But again, lack of crema and taste being extremely "metallic" and sour!
I have had both these drinks before at coffee shops I trusted and enjoyed the complex distinct  differences they have to offer, so I'm pretty sure my tast buds aren't crazy! I tried to watch YouTube videos but found very little info, do to all the different techniques most I thought to be just wrong form what I've read here..  

The tastes, smell, and look out of the bottomless PF are off!
Is my amounts off, timing? Is there something I'm missing? Can someone help?
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SproBro
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Posted Tue Mar 18, 2014, 11:32pm
Subject: Re: Ristretto & Lungo extactions? What to look for with a Bottomless PF/NPF?
 

Heres is my understanding -
A double ristretto is going to be about 1.25-1.5 oz volume from 16-20g of ground coffee over 30-40 seconds. I believe the idea being that, in order to maintain a balanced shot, you need an adequate amount of time of water-on-puck-action to fully extract. The increase in time due to the decrease in water volume to extract your puck's goodness. If you just cut the shot short, you would have just a cut of the shot, rather than a fully developed but lower volume beverage.

It is also my understanding that this is a debated issue in terms of what these terms actually denote, but the above seems pretty sound in principle to me. My motto when it comes to coffee is: If it tastes bad, don't drink it.

It sounds like your extraction is blonding way too early, which is your puck prep, water hitting and breaking your puck, the seal around the outside of the puck with the basket, and the list goes on. Time is not the end all be all, the point of blonding is what I go off of - or when the end of the extraction starts to turn translucent.
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MWJB
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Posted Wed Mar 19, 2014, 2:45am
Subject: Re: Ristretto & Lungo extactions? What to look for with a Bottomless PF/NPF?
 

It's less confusing to refer to brew ratios (50%, or 1:2 for example) as how long, or short a ristretto/lungo might be will vary somewhat from person to person & bean to bean.

It's a good plan to weigh the shot, to establish these ratios.

The brew ratio really sets the concentration you are looking for, the shot should ideally be balanced at both ristretto & lungo, just less/more diluted...though this may be easier to say than do. ;-)
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T_Rick
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Posted Thu Mar 20, 2014, 5:36am
Subject: Re: Ristretto & Lungo extactions? What to look for with a Bottomless PF/NPF?
 

I'm definitely a ristretto fan, and I've had success for some time now in this approach:  I try to pull all my shots (ristretto or otherwise) with 19g, so on the higher end of the standard.  I try to only adjust the grind and the time of the pull.  The longest I'll allow for a shot is 35 seconds.

 
T-Rick

BOOKMAN: "You buy a jar of Folger's Crystals, you put it in the cupboard, you forget about it. Then later on when you need it, it's there. It lasts forever. It's freeze-dried. Freeze-dried Crystals."
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Frost
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Frost
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Posted Thu Mar 20, 2014, 10:12am
Subject: Re: Ristretto & Lungo extactions? What to look for with a Bottomless PF/NPF?
 

EQUII Said:

......  Ive now got to the point were I'm getting decent extractions on 15-17g double shot espresso's 25-27sec.  (This is were I've found the sweet spot on my classic) 70% of the time. ..........


I have better success with lungos, (~4.75oz yield/45s-55s). But again, lack of crema and taste being extremely "metallic" and sour! ........

Posted March 18, 2014 link

This recipe is well beyond lungo, into Cafe Crema territory. The Gaggia Boiler at 3.5 oz will have the brew water running cold.

I suggest you stick with doubles in the normal to ristretto range, adjust dose with a scale, and just work on the taste; figure out what works best for your coffee and machine.  The 'sweet spot' will not be so wide. Your 15-17g doubles are likely very close to the mark.
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EQUII
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EQUII
Joined: 21 Feb 2014
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Location: Flagstaf,f AZ.
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Posted Sat Mar 22, 2014, 7:23am
Subject: Re: Ristretto & Lungo extactions? What to look for with a Bottomless PF/NPF?
 

First of all I want to thank you all for all the great advice !! thank you very much,  The internet wat just filled with contraindicating information.

SproBro my ritual for my puck Prep is first,:  to dose in to the PF,, agitate, Level with a straight edge using the (N.S.E.W.) Technique then I do a PRE-Tamp of~ 5-8lbs..  Tight of the tamper I place it in the PF in the (N.S.E.W.) positions. I DO NOT TAP the side of t PF. Then I do my primary Tamp Of 30lbs..  I practiced for months on a digital bath scale  but I still use it once and awhile for testing my accuracy..
However, you mentioned the Coffee adhesion to the side of the PF. I wondered about this when you wrote it, because when I finish prepping my PF I would flip it over to get rid of the loose grounds.  But sometimes my Puck would fall out!  I was told this is normal if you turn you PF over too long. But I've read its not Norma and its a indicator that there something wrong with my tamp. any thoughts  SproBro

MWJB  I've seen the ratios used before, By chance do you have a link to a sight explaining the concept. I get 1:2 being 50% but what coffee extraction would that be? I think I Like to learn it I weigh everything!

T_Rick I as well only adjust my grind Unfortunately At 19g  (my basket tends to start to top off,) and my grinds start hitting my dispersion screen at 18g.  Now you being the connoisseur!! and Ristretto expert!..  if I have to drop my dose to 18g, would I increase or decreases my target time? and should I still be looking for 1.5oz?
BTY do you or anyone use a bottomless PF wile making the Ristretto? do I still look for the Tigger stripping?  and what should I look for in the lungo

Frost  


Frost Said:

This recipe is well beyond lungo, into Cafe Crema territory. The Gaggia Boiler at 3.5 oz will have the brew water running cold.

I suggest you stick with doubles in the normal to ristretto range, adjust dose with a scale, and just work on the taste; figure out what works best for your coffee and machine.  The 'sweet spot' will not be so wide. Your 15-17g doubles are likely very close to the mark.

Posted March 20, 2014 link


Frost  Are my volumes wrong? What would you say a proper Lungo volume should be or that you have had success with ? I hate to think that Lungos are a lost cause on my classic.
  Whats your basis of the Gaggia boiler cooling after 3.5oz's? I've never heard that before, though I have had temp issues, I thought it was just being temperamental....
I can pull 2oz with out a temp change, my normal doubles are actually pretty good.  I have adjusted the OPV. and planing on the PID Mod. you think any of these will help the temp issues?

Thanks ppl!!   DRINK UP!!
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MWJB
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Posted Sat Mar 22, 2014, 8:09am
Subject: Re: Ristretto & Lungo extactions? What to look for with a Bottomless PF/NPF?
 

EQUII Said:

MWJB  I've seen the ratios used before, By chance do you have a link to a sight explaining the concept. I get 1:2 being 50% but what coffee extraction would that be? I think I Like to learn it I weigh everything!

Posted March 22, 2014 link

 

Here's the thing that's initially tricky to grasp, ideally, whatever the ratio, the extraction yield should be the same, typically 18.5% to 20% of the dry dose dissolved into the cup. The longer the beverage, the less concentrated the shot....but the same/similar extraction yield range.

40-50% might be necessary with less soluble coffees/light roasts/a coarser grind, where you may need to push more water through the puck to hit the desired extraction yield. Concentrations of 7-10%TDS, low end of typical.

Most folk typically aim for 60-67% for medium to medium-light roasts, SO beans, fine gind. Going this short with a coarse grind/less soluble coffee/inefficient extraction will result in a degree of underextraction...you may like it, you may not. Concentrations of 11-13%TDS.

70-80% Ristretto territory by anyone's standards, well developed roasts, very fine grinds, concentrations over 13% to 15%-ish TDS.

Pick a brew ratio & stick to it (dose & beverage to the 0.1g wherever possible), vary grind until you hit the sweetspot (neither sour, nor bitter). If you don't hit the sweetspot, or when you do, the coffee is too concentrated, back off the ratio towards a longer drink.
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