Our Valued Sponsor
OpinionsConsumer ReviewsGuides and How TosCoffeeGeek ReviewsResourcesForums
Espresso: Questions and Answers
E61 pre-infusion not happening in new plumb-in
Craft Roasted Coffee
Some days you make the coffee. Other days the coffee makes you.
bit.ly/craftroasting-ks
 
Not Logged in: Log In to Postlog in
New Topics updated topics   New Posts new posts   Unanswered Posts new unanswered  
Search Discussion Board search   Discussion Board FAQ faq   Signup sign up  
Discussions > Espresso > Q and A > E61 pre-infusion...  
view previous topic | view next topic | view all topics
showing page 1 of 2 last page next page
Author Messages
emradguy
Senior Member
emradguy
Joined: 31 Mar 2011
Posts: 3,126
Location: Houston
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Duetto II; Twist v2
Grinder: M Major, Macap M4 x2, VDD...
Drip: Espro presses; Aeropress
Roaster: H-B "List of Favorites"
Posted Wed May 28, 2014, 12:02pm
Subject: E61 pre-infusion not happening in new plumb-in
 

Hey Guys,

As I've recently completed my plumb in, I wanted to start exploring pre-infusion.  I thought I'd read previously that it merely requires raising the brew lever to the mid-point, and then after user specified pre-infusion time, one simply raises the lever the rest of the way to activate the full brew pressure.  I've been playing with this, trying to get it to work, but it seems to either not pre-infuse or go to full pressure. I hear the machine churn when I raise the lever midway, but nothing doing on wetting the puck. I've waited as long as 15 seconds for water to saturate the puck, and have even lowered the lever to check the top of the puck, but it's been bone dry.

Obviously, it's not a big deal, as my spro is still coming out great, but hey...I want to take full advantage of my machine's capabilities.

Any help one can offer would be greatly appreciated!

 
.
Always remember the most important thing is what ends up in your cup!
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
frcn
Senior Member
frcn
Joined: 23 Dec 2001
Posts: 3,411
Location: Northern California
Expertise: Professional

Espresso: Vibiemme Domobar Double
Grinder: Mazzer Kony, Baratza...
Vac Pot: Hario, 2 Cory pots, 1 Cory...
Drip: Behmor Brazen, Bunn A10 mod...
Roaster: computer controlled Hottop,...
Posted Wed May 28, 2014, 3:14pm
Subject: Re: E61 pre-infusion not happening in new plumb-in
 

emradguy Said:

Hey Guys,

As I've recently completed my plumb in, I wanted to start exploring pre-infusion.  I thought I'd read previously that it merely requires raising the brew lever to the mid-point..

Posted May 28, 2014 link

Nope... You need to raise it to the mid, at-rest point, then just a little further- between the mid point and the point at which the pump is energized. This lifts the brew valve (the top valve) and allows the water in the brew boiler to be pushed into the group. You can test this with the portafilter out of the group. Lift the lever to that position and water should dribble out of the group under line pressure if your machine works that way.

 
Visit My Website
www.EspressoMyEspresso.com
back to top
 View Profile Visit website Link to this post
emradguy
Senior Member
emradguy
Joined: 31 Mar 2011
Posts: 3,126
Location: Houston
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Duetto II; Twist v2
Grinder: M Major, Macap M4 x2, VDD...
Drip: Espro presses; Aeropress
Roaster: H-B "List of Favorites"
Posted Wed May 28, 2014, 5:04pm
Subject: Re: E61 pre-infusion not happening in new plumb-in
 

Thanks for replying, Randy!

Interesting though, I did try playing around with that a bit, but just activated the pump. Is it really subtle? I asked the question to the techies at CCS in email too, and their response was I probably need to adjust the brew switch position. They sent me a how to PDF.

Maybe before I mess with the switch, I'll try some more.

 
.
Always remember the most important thing is what ends up in your cup!
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
frcn
Senior Member
frcn
Joined: 23 Dec 2001
Posts: 3,411
Location: Northern California
Expertise: Professional

Espresso: Vibiemme Domobar Double
Grinder: Mazzer Kony, Baratza...
Vac Pot: Hario, 2 Cory pots, 1 Cory...
Drip: Behmor Brazen, Bunn A10 mod...
Roaster: computer controlled Hottop,...
Posted Wed May 28, 2014, 5:45pm
Subject: Re: E61 pre-infusion not happening in new plumb-in
 

If you have access to the pump, just disconnect one of the pump's wires so it can't run. Or disconnect one wire from the switch (whichever is easiest). Then you will know.

 
Visit My Website
www.EspressoMyEspresso.com
back to top
 View Profile Visit website Link to this post
boar_d_laze
Senior Member


Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 1,276
Location: Monrovia, CA
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: La Cimbali M21 DT/1 Junior...
Grinder: Ceado E92; "Bunnzilla"
Vac Pot: Royal Coffee Maker
Drip: Chemex + Kone; Espro Press
Roaster: USRC Sample Roaster
Posted Wed May 28, 2014, 7:54pm
Subject: Re: E61 pre-infusion not happening in new plumb-in
 

Randy is right about how it's designed to work.  Actually Randy probably knows as much about how an E-61 is supposed to work as anyone on the planet.  

However, there's the way the E-61 is designed to work, whether the water is supplied from a reservoir or line; and the way the E-61 actually works when plumbed in.

It's designed so that even when the pump is on, flow is restricted until the second of three chambers fills completely, an internal valve is opened, and full flow is allowed (at full pressure) through the group.  In terms of design, the mid position is a "null," doing nothing in terms of pre-infusion or anything else.

However, the "null" position actually allows the inlet, which is normally covered by the curved side of the cam when it's in the off position to be exposed.  Then, in a plumbed machine, even though the mid position doesn't turn the pump on, line pressure will force water (at that pressure) into the group.  It's not a design feature, but there's no law against it; and if you can make it work for you -- good for you.

But because it's more design accident than design feature, and because there are a number of manufacturers making E-61s to their own specifications -- there's no way of knowing just what lever position will allow line pre-infusion without experimenting.  I suggest removing the pf, determining at what lever position the pump solenoid is activated, backing off just until the pump stops and checking for flow.  If you got flow but ain't got no pump, you got you some pre-infusion.  

After awhile hitting the right lever position will become second nature.  Or so I'm told.  

A great many people -- perhaps most of them -- who want to tell you how an E-61 works are full of crap.  It bears repeating that Randy is not among them.  

Rich
back to top
 View Profile Visit website Link to this post
frcn
Senior Member
frcn
Joined: 23 Dec 2001
Posts: 3,411
Location: Northern California
Expertise: Professional

Espresso: Vibiemme Domobar Double
Grinder: Mazzer Kony, Baratza...
Vac Pot: Hario, 2 Cory pots, 1 Cory...
Drip: Behmor Brazen, Bunn A10 mod...
Roaster: computer controlled Hottop,...
Posted Wed May 28, 2014, 10:18pm
Subject: Re: E61 pre-infusion not happening in new plumb-in
 

Thanks, Rich. Very kind words, indeed, and much appreciated. I am likely no better than number 2 on that list after Eric.

Let's break it down further. In terms of operator movement of the lever of the "manual" E-61 groups, there are four positions:

"OFF" - when the lever is in the down position, the cam depresses the infusion valve which is now open which connects the channel that leads to the group to the infusion chamber. At the same time, the infusion valve depresses and opens the "exhaust" valve. So if you applied compressed air into the waste exit at the bottom of the group the air would come out of the brew head.  Additionally, the brew valve (the one on top of the group) is now closed so if the pump were to run, no water would flow out of the group.

"MIDDLE" - This is what I think Rich was calling the "null" position (at least that is how I interpret it). With the lever in the "center" relaxed position some freeplay should be felt because the cam is not exerting any force on the valves and so they all three valves in the closed position. This is a design feature allowing the cam lever assembly to be easily removed since there is no force being applied to it by the valves (which are spring loaded). More importantly, it also allows easy insertion of the cam lever assembly! Without this feature some or all the valves would need to be partially removed (their retaining parts loosened) to get it back in. While it is possible for the pump to come on in this position, it should not. If it does, the switch is out of adjustment.

"INFUSE" - In this position, if the switch is set just so,  the lever has been lifted just a few more degrees and the brew valve opens slightly but the pump is not yet activated. This allows a plumbed machine to fully infuse the group and the coffee. The infusion chamber fills and water at line pressure flows into the coffee. The portafilter will eventually begin dripping espresso from the portafilter, but that takes around fifteen or twenty seconds and that leads to overextraction. Five seconds of saturation should be sufficient.

"BREW" - The lever is fully open, the brew valve is opened, the pump is energized and the extraction begins in earnest. The infusion valve is opened until a pressure which is determined by the force of the infusion valve's spring. Once the "equalizing" pressure is achieved the infusion valve closes. The "exhaust" valve stays closed until the lever is lowered at the end of the extraction.

In terms of this thread. The pump switch must not have its contacts closed until a point after the brew valve is opened to achieve operator-controlled pre-infusion. As has been mentioned, the infusion valve can do this by just lifting the lever fully when you desire to start the extraction, but the time period for this designed-in preinfusion is shorter than can be achieved manually. That discussion can go on for - well, it likely has been going on in one circle or another since around 1960.

For further detailing of this, I suggest going downloading the Vibiemme Domobar Double owners manual (this link to Espressocare.com) and check pages 5 through 8 where I included a detailed set of drawings with thorough explanations of all this.

And if you have not done so, the original patent upon which I based my art poster can be downloaded and read HERE.

 
Visit My Website
www.EspressoMyEspresso.com
back to top
 View Profile Visit website Link to this post
emradguy
Senior Member
emradguy
Joined: 31 Mar 2011
Posts: 3,126
Location: Houston
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Duetto II; Twist v2
Grinder: M Major, Macap M4 x2, VDD...
Drip: Espro presses; Aeropress
Roaster: H-B "List of Favorites"
Posted Thu May 29, 2014, 11:30am
Subject: Re: E61 pre-infusion not happening in new plumb-in
 

Thanks Randy! I've had your VBM DD manual since I bought my Duetto, because (and I've said this before on here) I think anyone who owns a DB machine should have it. In fact, as I read your explanation, I was thinking...this sounds like the manual :)

The pdf the tech at CCS sent me indicates a small gap between the brew switch and the lever cam, when the lever is in the "off" position.  On my machine there is actually contact between the lever cam and the brew switch in the "off" position, so I can see I do need to make an adjustment.  He couldn't tell me what the tolerance is supposed to be, but rather suggested I play with it until I get it just right.

Unfortunately, this is going to now go on the back burner, as I seem to have a possible bad boiler temp probe too.  Today, I noticed my brew boiler temp was reading just over 270F on the PID display! I shut it off immediately, and will have to look into it more tonight.

 
.
Always remember the most important thing is what ends up in your cup!
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
frcn
Senior Member
frcn
Joined: 23 Dec 2001
Posts: 3,411
Location: Northern California
Expertise: Professional

Espresso: Vibiemme Domobar Double
Grinder: Mazzer Kony, Baratza...
Vac Pot: Hario, 2 Cory pots, 1 Cory...
Drip: Behmor Brazen, Bunn A10 mod...
Roaster: computer controlled Hottop,...
Posted Thu May 29, 2014, 12:54pm
Subject: Re: E61 pre-infusion not happening in new plumb-in
 

When you get to adjusting the switch, there is a wide range of acceptable tolerances there. So long as it turns on the pump before the lever reaches the end of its travel and that vibrations do not cause the lever to move and turn the pump off anywhere along that range is likely going to work just fine.

 
Visit My Website
www.EspressoMyEspresso.com
back to top
 View Profile Visit website Link to this post
emradguy
Senior Member
emradguy
Joined: 31 Mar 2011
Posts: 3,126
Location: Houston
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Duetto II; Twist v2
Grinder: M Major, Macap M4 x2, VDD...
Drip: Espro presses; Aeropress
Roaster: H-B "List of Favorites"
Posted Fri May 30, 2014, 6:24am
Subject: Re: E61 pre-infusion not happening in new plumb-in
 

Thanks again Randy!

It seems I may have lucked out on the brew temp sensor.  I ran the machine for a few hours last night, watching careful for overheating at al was normal.  This am, everything remained normal.

I'm looking forward to getting the switch in the right spot, and hoping that from the photo in the pdf I received, I'll get lucky approximating the position.

EDIT: Here's a photo of the current maladjusted brew switch, which contacts the cam in the "off" position.

emradguy: brew switch annotated 2.jpg
(Click for larger image)

 
.
Always remember the most important thing is what ends up in your cup!
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
emradguy
Senior Member
emradguy
Joined: 31 Mar 2011
Posts: 3,126
Location: Houston
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Duetto II; Twist v2
Grinder: M Major, Macap M4 x2, VDD...
Drip: Espro presses; Aeropress
Roaster: H-B "List of Favorites"
Posted Sat May 31, 2014, 4:39pm
Subject: Re: E61 pre-infusion not happening in new plumb-in
 

All is well now! I backed out the brew switch per the instructions I got from the techs at Chris' and now the pump doesn't come on before the lever opens the valve inside the E61.

I also lowered my brew pressure, as it was running at 10bar since the plumb in.

I also replaced the drain piped under my sink with one that receives the machine drain line, and hook it up.

And my freaky unregulated brew temp seems to have been a single isolated event - a glitch in the matrix?

Life is good!!!

 
.
Always remember the most important thing is what ends up in your cup!
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
showing page 1 of 2 last page next page
view previous topic | view next topic | view all topics
Discussions > Espresso > Q and A > E61 pre-infusion...  
New Topics updated topics   New Posts new posts   Unanswered Posts new unanswered     Search Discussion Board search   Discussion Board FAQ faq   Signup sign up  
Not Logged in: Log In to Postlog in
Discussions Quick Jump:
Symbols: New Posts= New Posts since your last visit      No New Posts= No New Posts since last visit     Go to most recent post= Newest post
Forum Rules:
No profanity, illegal acts or personal attacks will be tolerated in these discussion boards.
No commercial posting of any nature will be tolerated; only private sales by private individuals, in the "Buy and Sell" forum.
No SEO style postings will be tolerated. SEO related posts will result in immediate ban from CoffeeGeek.
No cross posting allowed - do not post your topic to more than one forum, nor repost a topic to the same forum.
Who Can Read The Forum? Anyone can read posts in these discussion boards.
Who Can Post New Topics? Any registered CoffeeGeek member can post new topics.
Who Can Post Replies? Any registered CoffeeGeek member can post replies.
Can Photos be posted? Anyone can post photos in their new topics or replies.
Who can change or delete posts? Any CoffeeGeek member can edit their own posts. Only moderators can delete posts.
Probationary Period: If you are a new signup for CoffeeGeek, you cannot promote, endorse, criticise or otherwise post an unsolicited endorsement for any company, product or service in your first five postings.
Stefano's Espresso Care
Repair - Parts - Sales
Factory Authorized &
Trained Technician
www.espressocare.com
Home | Opinions | Consumer Reviews | Guides & How Tos | CoffeeGeek Reviews | Resources | Forums | Contact Us
CoffeeGeek.com, CoffeeGeek, and Coffee Geek, along with all associated content & images are copyright ©2000-2014 by Mark Prince, all rights reserved, unless otherwise indicated. Content, code, and images may not be reused without permission. Usage of this website signifies agreement with our Terms and Conditions. (0.277743816376)
Privacy Policy | Copyright Info | Terms and Conditions | CoffeeGeek Advertisers | RSS | Find us on Google+