lilirit Senior Member Joined: 3 Nov 2004 Posts: 8 Location: New Zealand Expertise: I like coffee
Espresso: Giotto (E61 Rocket) Grinder: Anfim Best
Posted Wed Nov 3, 2004, 3:32pm Subject: Giotto ECM - Why can't I make it work???
I have spent 3 months trying to get my Giotto (E61 Rocket) machine to work. It seems to be the most temperemental thing I've encountered despite all the great reviews. I think I get one good coffee every five attempts. The problem is that the extraction starts in 2-3 secs, and simply pours out, no matter how much coffee's in the group, how hard I tamp, or how fine I grind. It's very often not hot enough as well. I'm using freshly purchased beans which I grind myself. I previously owned a Pavoni which was a fantastic little machine and worked beautifully for 5 years before being retired. Could it be the new machine's a dud or is it my fault? I would think that after three months I would have cracked it. Can anyone help with suggestions?
Yann Senior Member Joined: 1 Dec 2002 Posts: 225 Location: Wellington (New Zealand) Expertise: I like coffee
Espresso: La Marzocco GS/3 Grinder: Mazzer Kony-E
Posted Wed Nov 3, 2004, 3:57pm Subject: Re: Giotto ECM - Why can't I make it work???
Where abouts are you getting your beans from? Are you sure they're fresh? Not sure if it being cold is a sign of something not being right, like the pressure adjustment or something. I'm sure other Giotto uses may have an idea.
Are you able to get some help from the place where you purchased it from? Maybe asked them to have a look, or perhaps trouble shoot for you?
lilirit Senior Member Joined: 3 Nov 2004 Posts: 8 Location: New Zealand Expertise: I like coffee
Espresso: Giotto (E61 Rocket) Grinder: Anfim Best
Posted Wed Nov 3, 2004, 4:54pm Subject: Re: Giotto ECM - Why can't I make it work???
Thanks for your reply so soon. The beans are fresh - I get them from the same place I purchased the machine and they roast on the premises. I've asked for help from them but they're not too bothered.
ilPresidente Senior Member Joined: 20 Oct 2004 Posts: 18 Location: Charlottesville VA Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: ECM Giotto Premium, Francis... Grinder: Mazzer Mini Electric
Posted Thu Nov 4, 2004, 12:56pm Subject: Re: Giotto ECM - Why can't I make it work???
Sorry to hear you are having such difficulties. I have a Giotto Premium, ~1 month, and have been pretty happy so far...
A couple of questions:
What kind if grinder are you using and are you certain that it is operating correctly? When you make small adjustments to the grind, can you feel the difference in the coffee's texture between your fingers, or when you tamp? Does it need to be cleaned, or the blades replaced?
How is the pressure on your Giotto? What does it rest at on average, do you see it surf a lot?
Does the boiler fill very often? Do you hear it fill while you are extracting?
How much time do you give the machnine to warm- up before you use it? Do you pull a blank shot to cool it down before using it if its been on a while?
lilirit Senior Member Joined: 3 Nov 2004 Posts: 8 Location: New Zealand Expertise: I like coffee
Espresso: Giotto (E61 Rocket) Grinder: Anfim Best
Posted Thu Nov 4, 2004, 6:43pm Subject: Re: Giotto ECM - Why can't I make it work???
Thanks for your comments ilPresidente - this site has been by far the most informative i've found:
The grinder is an Anfim Best. Purchased at the same time as the Giotto. I presume it's operating correctly although I have the grind set to 2.5 which seems very low. It is pretty fine. I compared it to my local cafe's grind and I think they're very similar.
The pressure rests at 1.3 - I've never seen it move once it's heated up.
The boiler fills (I assume that's the noise it makes) when I switch the machine on in the morning, and then usually towards the end of an extraction.
Warm up seems to take about 10 mins - I don't start anything until the pressure's up to 1.3. I don't pull a blank shot first though so will try this.
Made 6 coffees this morning... went to the local cafe in the end... It's costing me a fortune in beans! Perhaps I'll take up gin! :-(
Yann Senior Member Joined: 1 Dec 2002 Posts: 225 Location: Wellington (New Zealand) Expertise: I like coffee
Espresso: La Marzocco GS/3 Grinder: Mazzer Kony-E
Posted Thu Nov 4, 2004, 6:54pm Subject: Re: Giotto ECM - Why can't I make it work???
The Anfim Best should be more than enough in terms of the grind quality I think. Though I've never used one, it's usually the grinder retailers sell with the ECM Giotto. Though having said that, you're sure it's fine enough? The appearence of the grind sometimes looks the same, though may in fact end up being quite different. A better way to tell is when you rub it between your fingers.
Although my machine gets up to 1.3 bar in about 10 minutes, I'll still let me machine heat up for another 20 - 30 minutes. I find that everything isn't up to temperature within the 10 minutes it takes to get up to pressure. I find that espresso made at the 10 minute mark seems to be pretty poor and weak. Though, I am using a different machine...
lilirit Senior Member Joined: 3 Nov 2004 Posts: 8 Location: New Zealand Expertise: I like coffee
Espresso: Giotto (E61 Rocket) Grinder: Anfim Best
Posted Thu Nov 4, 2004, 6:59pm Subject: Re: Giotto ECM - Why can't I make it work???
Yann Thanks for that. I'll try making the grind finer and see what happens. Usually I turn the machine on first thing in the am and leave it on all day, just in case I get the urge for a bad coffee! Yes I am in Wellington.
Drummo Senior Member Joined: 14 Jul 2004 Posts: 54 Location: Perth, Western Australia Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Giotto Premium Grinder: Mazzer Mini
Posted Fri Nov 5, 2004, 3:56am Subject: Re: Giotto ECM - Why can't I make it work???
lilirit Said:
The problem is that the extraction starts in 2-3 secs, and simply pours out, no matter how much coffee's in the group, how hard I tamp, or how fine I grind.
I am no expert but my guess is that you are grinding WAY too coarse, tamping too light or both.
I assume that when you say that "extraction starts in 2-3 seconds" you mean that coffee starts flowing from the PF 2-3 seconds after you lift the lever which, based on my Giotto, is far too quick.
How long is it taking to complete a shot (30ml for a single with the single basket, or 60ml with the double)? From the symptoms, I would guess that your shots are taking well under 25 seconds.
With my Giotto, when tamped at about 30 lb, a shot completes in about 25 seconds after the lever is lifted. Extraction (coffee flowing from the PF) only starts around 7-8 seconds after the lever is lifted (possibly more-I'll check).
If extraction on my machine started in 2-3 seconds I would never end up with a 30 ml single or 60ml double shot in aroound 25 - which seems to be the name of the game - I would have a bucketful of weak swill.
Try grinding much finer to see how it goes and, if you haven't done so already, use a kitchen scale to check that you are tamping at around 30 lbs.
If that doesn't work, I don't know - perhaps try other beans.
As I said, I'm no expert, and perhaps someone with more experience may have other solutions.
lilirit Senior Member Joined: 3 Nov 2004 Posts: 8 Location: New Zealand Expertise: I like coffee
Espresso: Giotto (E61 Rocket) Grinder: Anfim Best
Posted Fri Nov 5, 2004, 1:13pm Subject: Re: Giotto ECM - Why can't I make it work???
Hi Drummo Yes, coffee starts flowing from the PF 2-3 secs after I lift the lever and a double shot is completed in around 5 secs!!! I'll get out the kitchen scales and grind much finer - my husband's just been sent out for yet another load of beans! Maybe I'll get a good coffee this morning...
Yes - way to coarse!! Adjust to a finer grind. Hopefully those beans have a roast date. When you get more ask about that because I notice the espresso gets thinner after a week from the roast.
OK - did you mention your tamper? If you have a proper 58mm tamper then tamp so the scale reads to 30-40 pounds. First tamp real light, then tap the portafilter a little to get everything settled and even, then tamp hard and twist to polish the "puck".
Use a timer for your shots. If the shot goes "blonde" before ~20 seconds grind finer. I agree about letting Giotto warm for a while first. Keep the PF locked in while it all heats together.
Try that, I bet it will do the trick. The pour should start with a few dark drops and then be mostly crema oozing out reddish-brown and thick for ~20 seconds until it goes blonde.
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