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BobS_UK
Senior Member


Joined: 7 Oct 2012
Posts: 5
Location: London UK
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Gaggia Baby Classic
Grinder: Krupps GVX2
Posted Thu Nov 8, 2012, 7:04am
Subject: gaggia baby class .....coffee temperature
 

Hi CoffeeGeeks
  I am a patient man (and if you read this through you will realise it is true) but I want to know if I have been sold a pup!...a Gaggia coffee making pup.    
I would like to check in with you guys to see what else could be going wrong.   In short the simple question is what temperature should water be when making expresso ?  

Last January my partner bought me a Gaggia Baby Class from an amazon seller, after reading the recommendation in UK consumer magazine Which. When it arrived (from Italy) I noted it had the product details cut off from the box…i.e. serial number…while suspicious I did not want to appear cherlish to send it back.   Subsequently I have tried to get decent coffee out of it with little success, Using decent beans, learning technique from various articles, and most recently replacement of the crema system with as recommended by AndyPanda "New Gaggia Classic - issue with "Perfect Crema" filter"?LastView=1349623291&Page=1  All without success.  

I have returned the item three times for repair by Phillips;-
On the first return the repair note said coffee should be made with water 73-83oc.
I disputed this on the second time the machine came back producing something nearer 88o but which was incredibly slow to produce anything (ie several minutes for a single shot)
On the third time it came back running more free having supposedly be decalcified, but running at the lower temperature again.  

Fundamentally it still does not seem to make the water hot enough. I have read on a Gaggia supplier web site that it says coffee needs to be made at 88-95o C…but this still fails to get to 80oC

So before I go back to them for a replacement or my money back can anyone spot where else I might be going wrong and verify my ascertion about appropriate temperatures.  

Thanks for you patience in reading to this point !  
AtB Bob
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D4F
Senior Member


Joined: 15 Mar 2012
Posts: 1,981
Location: USA
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Gaggia Classic PID
Grinder: Baratza Forte-AP
Posted Thu Nov 8, 2012, 12:23pm
Subject: Re: gaggia baby class .....coffee temperature
 

Welcome to CG patient man!

I use Redbird Espresso and the roaster suggests about 200F, I believe about 93C.  That is a fairly normal brew water temperature.  I do not see how you are measuring brew water temperature to verify your numbers.  I was able to get a reasonably accurate temperature on my Classic using a Styrofoam cup and instant digital thermometer and get a read on about 30 ml of water from the group.  That temperature falls so quickly in a cup that you can watch the decline.  If you do not hold the cup to the group and allow the water to fall through the air, then the temperature looks low even if it comes out of the group hot.

Let the machine warm for 20 – 30 minutes.

Carefully measure the temperature in a Styrofoam cup with a preheated instant digital thermometer.  Similar to the FRCN site, but updated to instant digital and preheating.

http://www.frcndigital.com/coffee/HowToTempCheck.html

Many users temperature surf, or use the steam switch to get the water hot.  The Gaggia boilers hold about 105 ml and that cools very quickly with incoming water.  If you are flushing any water prior to the shot, then you may be dropping the temperature.

Please report back.

 
D4F also at
http://www.gaggiausersgroup.com/
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BobS_UK
Senior Member


Joined: 7 Oct 2012
Posts: 5
Location: London UK
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Gaggia Baby Classic
Grinder: Krupps GVX2
Posted Sun Nov 18, 2012, 2:52pm
Subject: Re: gaggia baby class .....coffee temperature
 

Hi D4F
Thanks for the guidance, I finally had a chance to go through the process you suggested, and while my thermometer may not be the most accurate, the boiling water check reading came up at 96c.  The test showed the water is coming out at 80c on a thermometer that gives low readings, and i did the test about three time and got a same reading.

So it would seem I have evidence that the water is not reaching a suitable temperature 93c, and the product I have is either an individually defective item or the range is not fit for purpose.

Looks as though i'll be sending it back for a refund, unless you can suggest a remedy.

On the basis I am successful,I guess i'll be back on this site to try and find the right machine.

Thanks for your help.

Atb
Bob
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D4F
Senior Member


Joined: 15 Mar 2012
Posts: 1,981
Location: USA
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Gaggia Classic PID
Grinder: Baratza Forte-AP
Posted Sun Nov 18, 2012, 3:45pm
Subject: Re: gaggia baby class .....coffee temperature
 

If you are successful then you can start looking.  If not successful and you are going to use that machine, then you may need a new thermostat, cheap enough, or a PID, or learn to temperature surf.  Using the steam switch you can learn to raise the temperature fairly predictably, and most Gaggia users surf or get a PID.  Bimetal thermostats have a large range and it is difficult to get a proper temperature.

"Boiling water temperture is 96c."  So the thermometer is a little low as you noted.  That is an easy reading, stick the thermometer is boiling water.  The temperture of brew water is difficult to get accurately, even if you are consistent.  Just to check, you used an instant digital thermometer and preheated it.  The temperature is very short lived and rapidly drops.  Just trying to make sure that you measured correctly.

 
D4F also at
http://www.gaggiausersgroup.com/
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BobS_UK
Senior Member


Joined: 7 Oct 2012
Posts: 5
Location: London UK
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Gaggia Baby Classic
Grinder: Krupps GVX2
Posted Mon Dec 17, 2012, 11:12am
Subject: Re: gaggia baby class .....coffee temperature
 

Hi

Philips/Gaggia have come back to me saying the product is fine, operating within their spec range of 73 to 83 degrees c. They have offered me the choice of gaggia class or gaggia baby twin both reconditioned items, with no garentee  of  a higher temperature.  So it would seem whatever i do i would need to amend them to get a desired result.

I'm now wondering if i should take up the offer in lieu of a battle to get cash back. The reviews of both seem mixed, would you be able to advise on the differences between the two?

Thanks
Bob

D4F Said:

If you are successful then you can start looking.  If not successful and you are going to use that machine, then you may need a new thermostat, cheap enough, or a PID, or learn to temperature surf.  Using the steam switch you can learn to raise the temperature fairly predictably, and most Gaggia users surf or get a PID.  Bimetal thermostats have a large range and it is difficult to get a proper temperature.

"Boiling water temperture is 96c."  So the thermometer is a little low as you noted.  That is an easy reading, stick the thermometer is boiling water.  The temperture of brew water is difficult to get accurately, even if you are consistent.  Just to check, you used an instant digital thermometer and preheated it.  The temperature is very short lived and rapidly drops.  Just trying to make sure that you measured correctly.

Posted November 18, 2012 link

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D4F
Senior Member


Joined: 15 Mar 2012
Posts: 1,981
Location: USA
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Gaggia Classic PID
Grinder: Baratza Forte-AP
Posted Mon Dec 17, 2012, 7:57pm
Subject: Re: gaggia baby class .....coffee temperature
 

Get the Classic, Twins tend to leak.  See the repair site note below.

http://www.partsguru.com/GaggiaBabyClassandTwinBaby.html

Did you do the styrofoam cup test with an instant digital thermometer, and good prewarming of the thermometer and styrofoam cup to about boiling, immediately prior to the test?  Temperatures fall very quickly.  You can see the fall as you are trying to measure, so the peak temperature can be difficult to measure.

You can adjust the temperature to what ever is needed for taste with a PID, or with temperature surfing.  Both methods are described and shown on Youtube in the thread below.  Sorry if the thread is a little tedious, it was done with experimenting as it went.

http://coffeegeek.com/forums/espresso/machinemods/571792

Neither surfing or PID are overly difficult.  A PID is easily removed and can be used over on another machine.  Most SBDU machines are a lot easier to use with a PID.

 
D4F also at
http://www.gaggiausersgroup.com/
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emradguy
Senior Member
emradguy
Joined: 31 Mar 2011
Posts: 2,962
Location: Houston
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Duetto II; Twist v2
Grinder: M Major, Macap M4 x2, VDD...
Drip: Espro presses; Aeropress
Roaster: H-B "List of Favorites"
Posted Mon Dec 17, 2012, 8:47pm
Subject: Re: gaggia baby class .....coffee temperature
 

Seems to me you're getting the help you need from D4F on temperature, and I do agree with his recommendation to choose the Classic over the Twin.

To address something else you brought up in your first post...

1) make sure you're using beans that have been roasted withing the past two weeks

2) strongly consider replacing your grinder.  The one you have is not up to snuff for getting the proper grind for eSpresso.  Sure, you may get lucky one day with it, but it can't deliver the consistency and adjustibility you need to properly dial in the grind for shots.

Remember this, always...the most important thing is how it tastes when you drink it.

 
.
Always remember the most important thing is what ends up in your cup!
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BobS_UK
Senior Member


Joined: 7 Oct 2012
Posts: 5
Location: London UK
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Gaggia Baby Classic
Grinder: Krupps GVX2
Posted Tue Dec 18, 2012, 6:28am
Subject: Re: gaggia baby class .....coffee temperature
 

Thanks....i did the test but not with the instant digital thermometer...which is now on the xmas present list.

@emradguy
can you point me to the issues with the grinder...bought it as a newby but don't feel I've my moneys worth yet to justify more outlay!
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emradguy
Senior Member
emradguy
Joined: 31 Mar 2011
Posts: 2,962
Location: Houston
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Duetto II; Twist v2
Grinder: M Major, Macap M4 x2, VDD...
Drip: Espro presses; Aeropress
Roaster: H-B "List of Favorites"
Posted Tue Dec 18, 2012, 10:28am
Subject: Re: gaggia baby class .....coffee temperature
 

actually I did a google search and then followed a link to a review of it on here.

I didn't read the whole thing, but when I saw there are only 17 steps, I knew right away that for at least that one reason (there are probably others - such as burr wobble, particle size distribution, percent of fines, etc), it is inadequate for espresso.  Also, the reviewer rated it highly for drip and french press.  All grinders cover a very wide range of particle size, from coarse through fine, so when there are only 17 steps, only a few of those are in the fine range. Compare it to a Rancilio Rocky, which also covers the whole gamut from coarse through fine.  It has 40 steps.  I owned one of those and from my experience, found it to be useable, but suboptimal due to the wide steps.  There have been many users here saying similar things about Rocky.

Anyhow, when you can save up the money, a much better grinder is going to serve you well, and will actually make you happier with your drinks than a better machine will.  Another frequent poster here suggested starting a tip jar by your machine.  Every time you make yourself a drink, give yourself a tip...then, spend the money on a new grinder when you have enough.

 
.
Always remember the most important thing is what ends up in your cup!
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D4F
Senior Member


Joined: 15 Mar 2012
Posts: 1,981
Location: USA
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Gaggia Classic PID
Grinder: Baratza Forte-AP
Posted Tue Dec 18, 2012, 10:55am
Subject: Re: gaggia baby class .....coffee temperature
 

You do not need to spend much on the digital thermometer.  Here is a representative one at about average price.  I particularly like this one as the stainless sheath can be removed and the thermistor bead placed on the Gaggia boiler.  You can then learn to temperature surf easily.  Some brands have the thermistor glued into the sheath, still fine for styrofoam cup.  Just so you know, I tried the old style bimetal thermometer and got low temperature readings when I started.  To get close, you will need the digital and preheating, the temperature falls that fast.  I bet that your temperature is fine as the factory suggests.  That is why temperature surfing or PID is useful in all SBDU machines.

http://www.bedbathandbeyond.com/product.asp?SKU=16921963

 
D4F also at
http://www.gaggiausersgroup.com/
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