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boar_d_laze
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Posted Fri May 16, 2014, 5:11pm
Subject: Thread Could Benefit From Moderator Attention
 

The Grinding My Beans thread could use a look by a moderator.  One person seems to have a real problem.    

Rich
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jliedeka
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Posted Sat May 17, 2014, 8:34am
Subject: Re: Thread Could Benefit From Moderator Attention
 

I looked it over and decided to lock the thread.

    Jim

 
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z0mbie
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Posted Sat May 17, 2014, 3:17pm
Subject: Re: Thread Could Benefit From Moderator Attention
 

jliedeka Said:

I looked it over and decided to lock the thread.

    Jim

Posted May 17, 2014 link

That's too bad.. I found it highly entertaining, if not fascinating, although it was unfortunate things came to insults.    Any chance it can be unlocked so people get a chance to correct their behavior?

I am fascinated by the long steep method and want to know if this can really be replicated. Perhaps Mark can start a new thread to continue the conversation, while refraining from personal insults if people can't their suns moons and stars correctly aligned to get it right.

New ideas in coffee are hard to come by so I think it's worth a discussion--that is, someone who has come  to some fruition with a seemly unorthodox and, in my eyes, outrageous claim..
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andys
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Posted Sat May 17, 2014, 5:20pm
Subject: Re: Thread Could Benefit From Moderator Attention
 

z0mbie Said:

That's too bad.. I found it highly entertaining, if not fascinating, although it was unfortunate things came to insults....New ideas in coffee are hard to come by so I think it's worth a discussion

Posted May 17, 2014 link

I agree, maybe it could get unlocked after a cooling off period.

And besides, what's the point of the internet if a guy can't log on and toss around a few gratuitous insults every once in a while?  :-)

 
-AndyS
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outofnowhere
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Posted Sun May 18, 2014, 4:25am
Subject: Re: Thread Could Benefit From Moderator Attention
 

Mark Prince (from locked thread): I've read through this thread, and I see one clear problem: lecturing and addressing / calling out / complaining about people's writing styles, word choices, and other semantics arguing. The rest of the thread is quite good.

Mark, with a large amount of respect for what you have created, what you are arguing against is very important, and you should listen to my point of view, even though it goes against your guidelines.

My problem is I want to learn all of the good that there is to learn on this web site, but this web site is becoming the personal property of one of your frequent contributors, and one has to pan through scores of his posts in order to follow the threads of anyone else to learn what people are saying about a variety of topics.  And this poster seems to require 'all of the oxygen' everytime he posts.  He comes across as a swaggering bully.

The locked thread is a good example of this.  Your moderator, jliedeka said from the locked thread: "I would say this thread was hijacked immediately and I sympathize with the OP who just wanted to improve his coffee experience on a budget".

I agree with this in terms of being hijacked, please refer back to the start of the locked thread.  Look at the first poster who 'hijacked' the thread, especially in terms of the attitude expressed.  No, Mark, attitude is the problem on CG, and anyone ought to be able to call it out.

The first perosn who hijacked this thread was the same person to call for locking the thread at its end, even though the personal back-and-forth was leaving him out of it.  What dog did he have in that fight except to control the thread?  And not only did he call the shot in that post, when no one responded he decided to institute a whole new post (this one) for no other purpose than to insist on his point of view in a louder manner.  Isn't that cross posting?  Isn't that lobbying for control?

And your moderator, jliedeka, took the bait and allowed himself to be manipulated by a rank-and-file member into locking the thread.  My perspective for this opinion: he gave a more moderate, soothing post that I mentioned above before locking it, so we have his unprompted response.  Would he have locked it if the rank-and-file member hadn't been a lobbyinst for his control?

This index example of members who act in a bullyish manner has been quick to call for a moderator to strike down a poster who strongly disputes the bully's claims, even if no personal remark was offered.  I can quote proof of this claim if others are unable to find them.

Look, I just started trying to enjoy CG.  At the top of the forum it says something like 63 posts/day.  Isn't it significant when 6-8 of them (about 10 percent) belong to one poster who seems to know everything about everything?  Is it possible?  Isn't this a form of hijacking?  So every interesting (the most engaging) posts that appear on a given day have to have his imprimateur on them?  When I first started reading CG, I said to myself, "OMG, this guy has a lot of time on his hands and an undeniable desire to identify as a coffee expert - I hope he does not become a moderator".  And now I see that he is positioning moderators to do his bidding.  I believe in the slippery slope.

So..I am joining the flight to HB, where the problem still exists, but less so, or to coffeeforumsuk, or to other sites that have not been found by the coffee bullies that seem to be grown and nourished here.

In order to close on a constructive note, please consider limiting daily posts to 3 or 4.  This would prompt all of us to post in a more selective and mindful manner.  If an expert comes across a good fit for his or her knowledge base, it is enough.  Otherwise, it degenerates into pedantry.

OON
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andys
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Posted Sun May 18, 2014, 5:30am
Subject: Re: Thread Could Benefit From Moderator Attention
 

Outofnowhere: Well said.

 
-AndyS
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SJM
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Posted Sun May 18, 2014, 8:04am
Subject: Re: Thread Could Benefit From Moderator Attention
 

outofnowhere Said:

So..I am joining the flight to HB, where the problem still exists, but less so, or to coffeeforumsuk, or to other sites that have not been found by the coffee bullies that seem to be grown and nourished here.

Posted May 18, 2014 link

Unfortunately those two bullies have already colonized H-B, although it is true that Dan is better at keeping them under some control.
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tek
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Posted Sun May 18, 2014, 8:37am
Subject: Re: Thread Could Benefit From Moderator Attention
 

andys Said:

Outofnowhere: Well said.

Posted May 18, 2014 link

+1

 
www.10000shots.com
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dana_leighton
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Posted Sun May 18, 2014, 11:07am
Subject: Re: Thread Could Benefit From Moderator Attention
 

outofnowhere Said:

The first perosn who hijacked this thread was the same person to call for locking the thread at its end, even though the personal back-and-forth was leaving him out of it.  What dog did he have in that fight except to control the thread?  And not only did he call the shot in that post, when no one responded he decided to institute a whole new post (this one) for no other purpose than to insist on his point of view in a louder manner.  Isn't that cross posting?  Isn't that lobbying for control?

Posted May 18, 2014 link

I am having a hard time inferring to whom you are referring. Rich (boar_d_laze) initiated this thread, but did not call for locking the "Grinding my beans" thread, although he did say it needed a moderator. If that's the correct inference, then no, it's not cross-posting. To me it does look like some kind of control mechanism, but we get that all the time - a member will complain about another member's actions, and sometimes we agree with the "controller" and sometimes we don't. For example, Mark (MWJB) complained about Rich's posting in another thread, calling it a troll (see this post), but the moderators did not "cede control" as you might put it. We examine each on a case-by-case basis.

I will say as a moderator that these kinds of calls are becoming more annoying - It smacks of us being the "adult" on a grammar school playground - Very annoying. You kids sort it out on your own, offline not in the forums.

Look, I just started trying to enjoy CG.  At the top of the forum it says something like 63 posts/day.  Isn't it significant when 6-8 of them (about 10 percent) belong to one poster who seems to know everything about everything?  Is it possible?  Isn't this a form of hijacking?  So every interesting (the most engaging) posts that appear on a given day have to have his imprimateur on them?  When I first started reading CG, I said to myself, "OMG, this guy has a lot of time on his hands and an undeniable desire to identify as a coffee expert - I hope he does not become a moderator".  And now I see that he is positioning moderators to do his bidding.  I believe in the slippery slope.

Yes, I agree it is a slippery slope. But, to claim that Jim is "doing the bidding" of any member is insulting to him and to the moderators in general. I think you should email an apology to Jim for that. But as moderators we have to have pretty thick skins, and that stuff just bounces off (generally speaking).

I have looked at the data from the last 200 posts on CG (goes back to Thursday) and calculated some basic descriptive stats. The average number of posts per member is 2.3. That statistic is misleading though, because as you might suspect there are some extremely active members who skew the average. The median is 1, and mode is 1. So most members posted once in 200 posts.

The standard deviation is 2.4 - meaning that 68% of the members who posted in that time posted between 1 and 4.7 times. Greater than 4.7 posts represents about 16% of the posters in that time frame, and greater than 7.1 posts represents 2.3% of the posters (statistical outliers). So lets look at the data.

11 posters posted 5 or more times (with number of posts and percentage):
boar_d_laze (12, 6.0%), weebit_nutty (12, 6.0%), CMIN (10, 5.0%), CoffeeRon (8, 4.0%), emradguy (7, 3.5%), IMAWriter (7, 3.5%), NobbyR (7, 3.5%), gibson00 (6, 3.0%), Seion (6, 3.0%), CoffeeRoastersClub (5, 2.5%), kamran (5, 2.5%)

So - none even got close to the mythical 10%. There were four who are statistical outliers: boar_d_laze, weebit_nutty, CMIN, and CoffeeRon.

OK - so my question is, what do we do with these data? Are we to propose some kind of arbitrary cutoff, where you can only post a certain number of posts per day? Under the current statistics, the average is 1 post every 3 days.  Do we say only 1 post a day? That's fine but what about an excited newbie who wants to ask lots of questions, or someone who has ideas or questions about brewing multiple methods? Restrict "Senior Members" to only 4 posts every 3 days?

please consider limiting daily posts to 3 or 4.  This would prompt all of us to post in a more selective and mindful manner.  If an expert comes across a good fit for his or her knowledge base, it is enough.  Otherwise, it degenerates into pedantry.

4 posts per day would still encompass Rich's posting rate, which is apparently to whom you are objecting. 3 would maybe slow down a few members. To really make an impact on these "know everything about everything" posters by setting an arbitrary number, you'd have to make it much lower - maybe 2 per day.

My purpose in this somewhat pedantic exercise was to point out that arbitrary numerical limits will not stop much of the behavior you might be referring to, and will unintentionally stifle active debate among people who do know a lot about coffee, and have something constructive to add to the discussion across a broad array of areas.

Mark has made it very clear to the moderators that we are not to be the "polite police." We are all adults and we can make good decisions about who really does know something about what they are talking about. Often you can see the true level of knowledge by reading "between the lines" of HOW someone says something or how they dismiss others. Becoming polite police risks censorship, and that's a slippery slope I am much more afraid of.

 
Dana Leighton - Espresso hack and CoffeeGeek moderator
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barkingburro
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Posted Sun May 18, 2014, 1:10pm
Subject: Re: Thread Could Benefit From Moderator Attention
 

Since this thread and the threads it references are public domain, I assume it's ok to add my two cents. If not, let me know and I'll butt-out in the future.

The following are just my opinions, of course:

1) The most blatant and repeated initiator of derogatory language was obvious. Mark Prince got it right, and I would add that this wasn't merely a politeness issue.

2) The antagonism between the two combatants spilled over from previous threads, and seems to be a continual flash point.

3) the thread was hijacked, but the OP wasn't complaining. Others, however, should have noted this and restricted their conversation or moved it to another thread.

Of the three problems, above, only the first two are worth intervention. In particular, neither Mark (MWJB) nor Rich have been held accountable for their behavior. And, although I see that Rich has often used humor and is the one trying to get a moderator to intervene, I also see that he is labelled a "bully" by Mark. After rereading this and other threads, the only outright bullying behavior I see is from Mark. Yes, it's possible that Rich is deliberately trying to set a spark. But Mark, you're on a hair trigger. Do you even realize that? Forget about your interaction with Rich, look how you interact with jpender. You insult him regularly when the first opportunity arises. He makes factual mistakes, according to you, but your language is inexcusable: it reeks of contempt. Is that really how you regard jpender? Why does he good-naturedly continue to engage in conversation with you? Or do you regard his interaction as one continual insult? At least, that's how your words appear.

 
- Michael
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