Posted Sat Sep 18, 2004, 5:52pm Subject: Re: People Against Starbucks
If Starbucks hadn't come along I daresay that you might not be in the business at all--I wonder how many of your customers frequented coffee-houses at all before Starbuck's made them popular? Not too many outside of a few big cities in the States. I think we can give them some credit for making the general public willing to pay $4-5 dollars a drink.
I discovered espresso via Starbucks--I worked there for several years and learned a great deal about espresso and the rigorous standards that must be adhered to in its production. This was several years ago, before superautomatic machines were used. The great thing was that I have carried this education with me to several local coffee shops and could combine Starbucks standards with the creative opportunities that independent bars have.
A lot of local places could learn alot about consistancy and standards from Starbucks--practices that might make their own establishments better. I wonder what euphriajunkies could learn.
christyb Senior Member Joined: 27 Oct 2004 Posts: 16 Location: Montana Expertise: I love coffee
Posted Thu Oct 28, 2004, 9:12am Subject: Re: People Against Starbucks
I am totally with you. I also work at a coffee shop here in montana. I can't count how many people say our coffee's better than theirs. I say that Starbucks either needs to get with the program or get out. Their coffee is just plain nasty.
Posted Mon Dec 13, 2004, 12:03am Subject: Re: People Against Starbucks
*warning: the following post contains ego, elitism, and self-gloating*
Being the Neo-Beatnik that I am, I've always frequented coffee shops since I was 17 (first car). In fact, till the day I die, I'll always stick to the mantra that Starbucks is overrated. My favorite place is little alternative-counter culture shop in Kalamazoo, MI by the name of 4th Coast.
Problem is, I can't find a 4th Coast everywhere I go, and now I don't go to college in Kalamazoo. I'd rather make my own coffee, but when time is tight and caffiene addiction kicks in, I settle for the easy convenience of Starbucks as there is one in every freakin' corner of the U.S.
bluesforpablo Senior Member Joined: 25 Jan 2004 Posts: 85 Location: North Carolina Expertise: Professional
Drip: French Press Roaster: Counter Culture Coffee
Posted Tue Dec 14, 2004, 5:03pm Subject: Re: People Against Starbucks
The good:
Starbucks introduced the US to espresso on a mass scale. Hell, five years ago I bought my first espresso machine from them and still use it. It's not the best machine but it can get the job done with a good grinder.
I can still remember why I bought the machine! My wife would want a cappuccino after we got the twins to bed. I would go to the ice cream/coffee shop up the corner and would get a horrified cappuccino that looked like dirty brown water with Dawn dishwashing soap bubbles on top. So one day we got a refund from the IRS :-) and she wanted me to make the espresso run. Well as I was about to turn into the shop I decided I'm not doing this anymore and drove a couple miles down the road and purchased the Barista machine.
The bad:
Overroasted coffee.
The ugly
Corporate, public company that is now being managed by the bean counters :-) Training is too expensive so they go to super automatics and lower their standards. Give the independants a good opportunity to steal customers if they would properly train their staff.
bluesforpablo Senior Member Joined: 25 Jan 2004 Posts: 85 Location: North Carolina Expertise: Professional
Drip: French Press Roaster: Counter Culture Coffee
Posted Thu Dec 16, 2004, 4:50am Subject: Re: People Against Starbucks
I'm not saying you should be taken out back and executed for liking Starbucks. In general especially in the northwest that prefer the taste of dark roasted coffee. For some reason, the northeast tends to favor very light roasted coffee. For most of us, Starbucks was the juggernaut that pointed in the direction to stop drinking canned, ground coffee and move to something better. I don’t think anyone on this board would choose a can of Maxwell House over a bag of whole beans from Starbucks.
I also think many of us that enjoy quality coffee are also frustrated that Starbucks has gone to Super Automatics to trim on training costs. Some of us are also a little miffed at the arrogance that Starbucks has a 20oz Macchiato and tries to confuse the market. I don't know, maybe that was strategic so customers that frequent Starbucks would get rolling eyes when visiting independents. Let's face it; the bulk of the U.S. was introduced to espresso drinks via Starbucks. Hell, my first home espresso machine is from Starbucks!
When you look at it from Starbucks point of view, they were probably feeling the stress of opening and training a lot of staff. The result was their quality started to slip. They had two choices to make at that point: slow growth and make sure the staff is properly trained or find a simpler way to make espresso-based drinks so training is minimal. Clearly they went the cheap route by going to Super Automatics. Now Super Automatics does the job for them, it produces a consistent product just like over-roasted beans. When you have a large chain that is important. You know what you'll get and how it will it taste in every location, just like McDonald's.
When you look at the bias of this board you will notice that people are constantly looking for a better brew and better espresso. Unfortunately, Starbucks seems to be going down a different path and has to focus on consistency rather then being the highest quality. I think many of the people on this forum are very passionate about coffee and have discovered a higher plateau of quality thru independent roasters and retailers that do spend the time to train their staff and care about the quality of their coffee and preparation. I seriously doubt you will ever see Starbucks offering a Cup of Excellence winner.
JGHines Senior Member Joined: 2 Oct 2003 Posts: 29 Location: Philadelphia Expertise: Professional
Espresso: LaMarzocco Linea EE 4 group Grinder: 2 Mazzer Super Auto & 1... Drip: Fetco CBS-51H Roaster: 15 kilo Ambex
Posted Thu Dec 16, 2004, 8:27am Subject: Re: People Against Starbucks
All this Starbuck bashing gets real tiresome. It comes across as, poor little me the big ,bad, green man makes it so I can't have a chance. Well, if that's the way you kids think about it you are totally correct, you don't have a chance on God's green earth. If you really think that you are going up against Starbucks, head to head, you will need at least 20 years of coffee under your belt. You will have to remember aswell, they started out as a small little (single) coffee shop. I think you are all just jeallous, of course that's just my opinion.
Starbucks moved in less than a block away from our shop. Since they have opened our sales have increased and they have had to cut hours. Oh, did I mention, since they opened we have also tripled our space just so our customers have somplace to sit.
So give the big green guys some credit they have paved a huge road for all us small guys. Who knows, had they not done there thing you may still be sitting in a cubicle punching buttons on a computer and know life and quite likely no good coffee.
Posted Thu Dec 16, 2004, 9:42am Subject: Re: People Against Starbucks
Interesting range of opinion. I've been an avid coffee drinker for what seems like a thousand years, brewed it , roasted it, am now enjoying espresso and Turkish. All different flavors. All different tastes. Certainly I have come to understand and enjoy the importance of good beans. I live in New England, the home of Dunkin Doughnuts (For me, not a happy taste). Before Starbucks, if I wanted coffee on the road, I had precious few choices. We had the Coffee Connection in Cambridge (very well known to coffee lovers), but that was about it. Starbucks love it or hate it, is a style of coffee making. True, their quality control has suffered as they have grown. For a large company though, they still put out a generally drinkable product. Do I prefer my own espresso or a good(and I do mean good, not just smaller) coffeehouse, sure. I even more prefer espresso from Tasse D'oro or St. Eustace in Rome. But I can't get that in the airport, on the road or whenever I want/need a cup. For that, I buy Starbucks almost every time. It may not be world class, but I don't need/require that every time I pick up a cup. For me, coffee is the universal comfort food. Most of the time, it hits the spot, and I for one am happy that they have grown and provide me with another choice. Choice is what is all about.
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