bugs Senior Member Joined: 5 Nov 2004 Posts: 252 Location: Queensland Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Gaggia Carezza/now sunbeam... Grinder: Saeco+2 hand grinders Vac Pot: had one, friends got it... Drip: Seven Roaster: conventional gas oven +...
Posted Tue Jan 18, 2005, 12:57pm Subject: Re: My thoughts on hard tamping
I just realized that the way of making coffee depends on the type of coffee itself, the way I told you about was with a coffee from the local roaster. I just bought Merlo Vivo same roast same grind and now it is a small dribble oilley black & white coffee ( not good have to adjust the grind )
Posted Wed Jan 19, 2005, 4:50pm Subject: Re: My thoughts on hard tamping
Odd that you think that one of your friends got their wrist injury with too low a tamping platform. I would have thought too low was better than too high as you could just lean on to the tamper more (with the straightarm and close body position mentioned by sharkboy and heel of the palm on the top of the tamper). Exceedingly low could cause back probs but by then, speed would also be seriously affected.
Do people think the harder tamp helps lengthen the shots by allowing more coffee to be packed into the baskets?
malachi Senior Member Joined: 5 May 2002 Posts: 1,735 Location: se portland, or Expertise: Professional
Espresso: Mistrals, Linea, Briccoletta Grinder: Roburs, Super Jollys,... Vac Pot: Hario, Bodum, Cona Drip: never Roaster: Probat 60kg, 15kg, 5kg,...
Posted Wed Jan 19, 2005, 5:37pm Subject: Re: My thoughts on hard tamping
in general, i find that i have to pay a lot of attention to three things. 1 - grip 2 - forearm and elbow orientation 3 - foot placement
i find the Schomer style grip to be the least injury prone. i pay a lot of attention to making sure the force is coming from the thumb and outside of the index finger. i spend a lot of time making sure my forearm is vertical and my elbow pointing upwards - and train people for this as well. getting the feet just right is pretty key - i stand pretty damn close to the counter unless it is quite low.
i've been doing this for a while now. current gig you see shifts where you'll pull 300 doubles. add to that the shots you chuck, shots where you're adjusting the grind, etc... suffice it to say i'm obsessed with the ergonomics of the job.
Pioneer Senior Member Joined: 23 May 2003 Posts: 55 Location: Sunshine Coast, Australia Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: Reneka PID, Home Silvia Grinder: Mazzers. Home Rocky Vac Pot: Bodum, Hario Drip: Nope Roaster: Jason and his Diedrich IR-12
Posted Wed Jan 19, 2005, 10:09pm Subject: Re: My thoughts on hard tamping
As I am in the process of building a roastery/coffee shop I would be most interested in opinions or references on the ideal/correct height for the bench holding my coffee gear. Feedback greatly appreciated and I hope relevant to this discussion.
Ant Senior Member Joined: 7 May 2003 Posts: 1,039 Location: Brisbane Expertise: I like coffee
Posted Wed Jan 19, 2005, 11:10pm Subject: Re: My thoughts on hard tamping
I experienced issues with a fine grind/light tamp being more sensitive to weather changes, hence the coarseness and hard tamping(with a little variability to account for what would otherwise be small and significant changes). We change the grind about 5x a day now, as opposed to when I first started and used a finer grind/lighter tamp and I probably changed the grinder a fair bit more. This is further complicated by the absolutely crap implementation of the super jolly doser, which has massive swings in dosage amounts even when the grinder is full since we are outdoors. Unfortunately for us, the difference between a crap shot, a good shot, and a great shot can be; 2-4 seconds, half a gram of coffee, or a difference of 3-5kg in tamping pressure.
Lindsay our coffee roaster's opinion with their blend is that it doesn't like being pulled to 30sec on a standard HX machine like the san marino or faema due to temperature instability. Their preferred shot times run between 22-26 seconds I think. Longer shots on the conti taste much better than longer shots on the san marino, and they explain this as the difference between the HX and the flatline brewtemps. I notice a smoother, more well rounded taste on the contis compared to the san marinos with their blend, and the crema is more persistent and a more even colour througout the course of extraction. For the 12oz cups espresso base; 12g basket/40mL extracted in around 26-30sec including pre-infusion. It changes minutely depending on where we find our daily sweet spot- its lucky that our drinks are usually so large, since small nuances that might be picked up in espresso or a piccolo are lost in that amount of milk so we are going for an above average overall taste (does that even make sense?!). Currently our skill level is astronomically lower than the Stumptowns, Intelligentsias', Campos, Toby's Estates of the world, but I would like to come as close as I can, and in the process bring my customers closer and closer towards knowing what a good quality espresso can and should be. I once ranted that I'd like to make competition quality drinks this winter.. hmmz, I was hoping to do that, but I just read the ABC scoresheets as well as trawling the scaa... what the?! Maybe by the winter of 2050 if I'm ever going to get even remotely close to a 6 :S
Offtopic- I recently had a mini caffeine tour around Brisbane with the caffeine queen herself- Anne. The best espresso that we had was at the dibella roastery and also at espresso garage (176 grey st, southbank). Fast, professional, and very clean were the girls I met who work the coffeecarts at the uni of qld. But the biggest disappointment was Vue, which is a shame since I've been there twice now and been served a decent coffee, and then a crap one and I'm hearing about how great it is. Two 'snapshots' and they were both blurry. I hope the third time around I get a good shot because I'm hearing some very good things about them. :) It was also very interesting to see the differences in dosing and distribution techniques that day because there was a fairly broad cross-section of skill level / knowledge / passion represented by those we had coffee from. Also Carl is right, there's probably a lot of 7g baskets sitting around somewhere unused, but unfortunately there are probably a lot of them in use here in Brisbane! :D
edit: Chris- I'm finding that my forearm muscles like Schomer's tamp the most as well :)
Posted Thu Jan 20, 2005, 1:36pm Subject: Re: My thoughts on hard tamping
Ozkoz asked
correct height for bench
etc.
Most kitchen designers go for the standard 900mm because it's a statistical average for acceptable ergonomics. It is however too high for a stove top IMO for example. Will you be making most of the coffee or employing staff? Obviously the height of the user/s will govern the optimal height for the coffee bench.
If it's going to be mostly yourself and you want to make life easy do a bit of experimenting first. Try using a machine first on a) a kitchen table [around the 750mm mark] then b) on a kitchen bench. Pay attention to your stance, elbow height and everything else mentioned in this thread. Using boards or whatever under the machine on the table raise it until you can 'feel' that it's too high to work comfortably.
I'm 5ft tall so I may have a skewed perspective, but I find that 900mm is too high for playing with hot water and the like.
Pioneer Senior Member Joined: 23 May 2003 Posts: 55 Location: Sunshine Coast, Australia Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: Reneka PID, Home Silvia Grinder: Mazzers. Home Rocky Vac Pot: Bodum, Hario Drip: Nope Roaster: Jason and his Diedrich IR-12
Posted Thu Jan 20, 2005, 1:39pm Subject: Re: My thoughts on hard tamping
Thanks for the input Jeff. It will not be me and I have no idea about who will be employed. I am sure I will be employing various shapes and sizes. I am therefore looking for the best average height.
bugs Senior Member Joined: 5 Nov 2004 Posts: 252 Location: Queensland Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Gaggia Carezza/now sunbeam... Grinder: Saeco+2 hand grinders Vac Pot: had one, friends got it... Drip: Seven Roaster: conventional gas oven +...
Posted Thu Jan 20, 2005, 2:46pm Subject: Re: My thoughts on hard tamping
I notice the difference between other kitchen benches its quite odd. I can feel it with the tamping and steaming and its only a slight difference ( 1cm ) in height or length but still takes me a while to get used to it. I would say average crouch height would be the best because that would be the perfect tamping and pouring height. eah thats my 2cents worth
maybe a pull out bench underneith for the smaller staff, so every one is happy. :D
Ant Senior Member Joined: 7 May 2003 Posts: 1,039 Location: Brisbane Expertise: I like coffee
Posted Thu Jan 20, 2005, 7:09pm Subject: Re: My thoughts on hard tamping
Also, thanks for redirecting me to the schomer tamp Chris. I re-adjusted my technique today after a bit of re-reading and have now rediscovered my levelling ability without excessively having to check and recheck it. :)
Symbols: = New Posts since your last visit = No New Posts since last visit = Newest post
Forum Rules: No profanity, illegal acts or personal attacks will be tolerated in these discussion boards. No commercial posting of any nature will be tolerated; only private sales by private individuals, in the "Buy and Sell" forum. No cross posting allowed - do not post your topic to more than one forum, nor repost a topic to the same forum. Who Can Read The Forum? Anyone can read posts in these discussion boards. Who Can Post New Topics? Any registered CoffeeGeek member can post new topics. Who Can Post Replies? Any registered CoffeeGeek member can post replies. Can Photos be posted? Anyone can post photos in their new topics or replies. Who can change or delete posts? Any CoffeeGeek member can edit their own posts. Only moderators can delete posts. Probationary Period: If you are a new signup for CoffeeGeek, you cannot promote, endorse, criticise or otherwise post an unsolicited endorsement for any company, product or service in your first five postings.
= No New Posts since last visit 