pstam Senior Member Joined: 27 Jan 2004 Posts: 2,305 Location: Beijing Expertise: Professional
Espresso: ECM, SAN MARCO, EURO 2000 Grinder: MAZZER Vac Pot: YES Drip: YES Roaster: YES, HOME STYLE
Posted Wed Feb 15, 2006, 9:45am Subject: Re: My COFFEE
JonR10 Said:
All the Molinari packages i have seen never have a roast date on the label. All the coffee I have ever seen exported from Italy never shows a roast date. If this is so, then how can you know that your coffee is two weeks after roasting?
Also, what is the transit time between Italy and China? Is your coffee sent to you by airplane or by boat?
pstam Senior Member Joined: 27 Jan 2004 Posts: 2,305 Location: Beijing Expertise: Professional
Espresso: ECM, SAN MARCO, EURO 2000 Grinder: MAZZER Vac Pot: YES Drip: YES Roaster: YES, HOME STYLE
Posted Wed Feb 15, 2006, 10:07am Subject: Re: My COFFEE
CK Said:
And you know??... the only thing that article really says about robusta in beans.. is that some roasters stick to it for traditions sake.. noone makes a good argument on any other reason to use it.
It is the tradition, and also the understanding of Italian about espresso for a hundred years. As it was said in that article, if I understand it right, the people in Caffe Molinari would not produce 100% blend, but do it for the many clients' request.
CK Said:
The pther thing i was going to ask you is , you know how you said arabica coffee was sour??.. and i said maybe its your untrained palate???
Well could the coffee be under extracted???... either the temperature is not up to temperature.. youre using cold handles and a cold cup... or too course???
because i dont understand how you use "sour " and "weak"....soft maybe... but soft isnt a bad thing.. its the opposite to 'harsh' which is usually offensive.
First, I would ask you to see my posts about the Coffee Shops which I visited in HK and Shenzhen, a short time ago. From there, you may see that I know well about the under-extraction, and know how to correct it easily.
Second, It seems that we have difficulties, or I have difficulties, to know and to describe the tastes of espresso. I can understand it, for that reason, I really do not talk too much about it.
Sour, or acidity, difference? I do not really know how to translate them into Chinese, and understand. Anyway, I know that one is not good and come from the non-proper skill, and the other is good, or the original of the blends. Can you understand what I mean here?
For the skills above, I tried all of them and checked with all of those results, the tastes of their espresso. I do not only to understand it by mind, but also by my practise.
At last, I would explain again about the blending.
A coffee roaster in Beijing was established about 1992 or 93, and keeping trying to blend till now. I tried their blends and asme results as I supposed. Samething happened to those younger roasters.
I know something about the Chinese traditional medicine and find out that they are simmilar to coffee blending but more complicated. Even if it is less complicated than the traditional Chinese medicine, it can be rather compicated and hard to do it well. For this reason, together with my experience of tasting the espresso blends of many local roasters, I do not believe that we can do it better, or even similar.
It is my understanding, anyway. Many Chinese people are still trying to blend, and someone annouced that they made ......
As my result, I do not blend.
Peter in Beijing ------------------- http://www.kaffa.cn/ ------------------- I am looking for the way and the place to extend our trainning courses.
mikep Senior Member Joined: 9 Nov 2004 Posts: 728 Location: Illinois Expertise: I like coffee
Espresso: Red Expobar OC / Gaggia... Grinder: Cimbali Jr/ Solis Maestro... Roaster: Hearthware Precision
Posted Wed Feb 15, 2006, 10:20am Subject: Re: My COFFEE
That reminds me of a question I belive I asked before, but I can't remember which thread:
Peter, is it possible for a company outside of Italy to produce a superior espresso blend? You seem to place a lot of value in the length of time a company has been in business, so I wonder, are the young roasters in the US just wasting their time?
pstam Senior Member Joined: 27 Jan 2004 Posts: 2,305 Location: Beijing Expertise: Professional
Espresso: ECM, SAN MARCO, EURO 2000 Grinder: MAZZER Vac Pot: YES Drip: YES Roaster: YES, HOME STYLE
Posted Wed Feb 15, 2006, 10:40am Subject: Re: My COFFEE
mikep Said:
Peter, is it possible for a company outside of Italy to produce a superior espresso blend? You seem to place a lot of value in the length of time a company has been in business, so I wonder, are the young roasters in the US just wasting their time?
In fact, it happens to any industry and professionals. I had been asked about it for many times here in Beijing, and China.
One day, my friends went to a coffee shop in Beijing, and ordered an espresso. When it came to them, they can see no cream at all, but not more than two bubbles. Such coffee shops' owners can even say that they are making it localized specially for the taste of Chinese clients.
Yes, anyone can do it theoretically if they have really understood it well including all important respects. For example, we may do it some day when we believe that we can make something better. But, till now, I have no idea about it yet.
Anytime, anyone can try to do anything they like. Creation and innovations are never definitely come or not come. But, wasting time is always happened. A hundred people do one thing and may be only one can get the result, or none. We believe that it could not be done, and we do not do it. But other people can do if they believe or even just would like to do it. It is the life.
Peter in Beijing ------------------- http://www.kaffa.cn/ ------------------- I am looking for the way and the place to extend our trainning courses.
Posted Wed Feb 15, 2006, 11:03am Subject: Re: My COFFEE
mikep Said:
Peter, is it possible for a company outside of Italy to produce a superior espresso blend? You seem to place a lot of value in the length of time a company has been in business, so I wonder, are the young roasters in the US just wasting their time?
One day, my friends went to a coffee shop in Beijing, and ordered an espresso. When it came to them, they can see no cream at all, but not more than two bubbles.
This doesn't answer my question. With the proper technique you can get some decent crema of really bad espresso roasts/blends. Your answer is mainly about brewing of espresso.
What I (and I assume Mike too) was wondring about is the BLEND/ROAST. And your response didn't provide any answer at all.
But I have another question about espresso brewing for you: I haven't seen you writing anything positive about any Chinese coffee shop (at least if not trained by you). As a matter of fact you had this one message thread about your little "report" concerning quality of coffee shops around you. Does that mean you're the only one in Beijing or China in general being able to 'properly' prepare espresso?
Posted Wed Feb 15, 2006, 3:31pm Subject: Re: My COFFEE
Peter, that "Robusta's Rehab" article you keep referring to only indicates that there are people who think robusta can add something to some blends - even these peopl are not saying that it is a necessity for all blends.
pstam Said:
You are right. On their package, there is no roast date, but "use before date". That date minus the guaranteed time can give the roast date.
For the sample beans we receive from Molinari, it was sent by express mail, DHL if I remember well.
Is the guaranteed time the same for all Molinari blends? Because if so, then the claim on their website that
This is why, even three years after it is packed, "5 STELLE MOLINARI" is still a just roasted coffe blend.
has my mind boggling.
And even 2 weeks after roasting is not very fresh by my books. And maybe the Molinari 100% arabica blend just isn't that great compared to some other arabica blends (not saying this is a fact but it is a possibility).
pstam Senior Member Joined: 27 Jan 2004 Posts: 2,305 Location: Beijing Expertise: Professional
Espresso: ECM, SAN MARCO, EURO 2000 Grinder: MAZZER Vac Pot: YES Drip: YES Roaster: YES, HOME STYLE
Posted Wed Feb 15, 2006, 9:35pm Subject: Re: My COFFEE
kaanage Said:
Peter, that "Robusta's Rehab" article you keep referring to only indicates that there are people who think robusta can add something to some blends - even these peopl are not saying that it is a necessity for all blends.
Yes, it is more or less the situation as in that article. It may be different for other roasters, but for Cafe Molinari as I understand, they would have all their blends with robusta beans. This is also my understanding. That is why we would not order any 100% arabica blends from them, but only ORO or 5 STAR. Next time, I would try some other blends, their ESPRESSO and CLASSICO blends, for more of robusta beans.
kaanage Said:
Is the guaranteed time the same for all Molinari blends? Because if so, then the claim on their website that has my mind boggling.
And even 2 weeks after roasting is not very fresh by my books. And maybe the Molinari 100% arabica blend just isn't that great compared to some other arabica blends (not saying this is a fact but it is a possibility).
The guaranteed time is not the same for different packaging. The package for 5 STAR is completely different from others. It is 3 years, but theoretically no time limit. While for the traditional packages, it is 18 months, including our ORO blend.
There are many possibilities, and we are all looking for the trueth. Who win, that is not important, but only if we can find out the trueth, we all are happy about it. People may forget it in a year, or even in a half year. But the good coffee will be spread of the world all the time.
Peter in Beijing ------------------- http://www.kaffa.cn/ ------------------- I am looking for the way and the place to extend our trainning courses.
Posted Thu Feb 16, 2006, 6:33am Subject: Re: My COFFEE
Hi Peter: I'm trying to wrap my head around your opinion of espresso, so please bear with me. From reading a large number of your posts over the past year or two, this is my take on your view of espresso:
Italians invented espresso, so therefore they set the standard and continue to set the standard for what espresso is and how it should taste.
You learned your trade from Italians and you have, in your mind, an "ideal" taste profile for the perfect espresso, and it is a derivitave of what you experienced in Italy.
Your supplier has been in business for 200+ years, so they certainly must be doing something right, and must produce quality product.
Experimenting with other blends/taste profiles/etc. of espresso is fine for others, but is a waste of your time because you have found a product that matches exactly your "ideal" taste profile, and, as mentioned, they've been doing it for 200+ years. Why spend time trying to reinvent the wheel when Molinari has been making perfectly good wheels for a long time.
The work and experimentation being done by micro roasters and artisan coffee houses in the US and other parts of the world not within the borders of Italy is encouraged, but the product will never be true espresso in the classical sense of the term because it doesn't fit the classic taste profile or contain the classic ingredients of an Italian espresso blend (i.e., a "chocolate fruit bomb" shot might be good to some folks, but it is not espresso).
100% arabica single origin roasts or blend are perfectly acceptable for drip or other coffee methods, but not espresso, because 100% arabica is always too soft and mild.
Are my assumptions correct? I'm not trying to stir the pot here, I'm just trying to establish a baseline with which everyone in the group can use when communicating with you regarding your choice of beans and attitude toward espresso. Once we've established the baseline, perhaps we can create a new thread with it called "Communicating with pstam/Peter in Beijing", and then maybe we can convice the mods to "sticky" it at the top of every forum as a reference.
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