adammlowe Senior Member Joined: 6 Jan 2007 Posts: 11 Location: Brisbane Expertise: Just starting
Posted Sat Jan 6, 2007, 3:03am Subject: Thermoblock OR Boiler
I'm currently looking at replacing my somewhat faulty Delonghi (EC430E). The two considerations are:
- Sunbeam EM6910 - Gaggia Classic
I like the dual approach to the Sunbeam (and also it looks - especially the red), but the Gaggia seems far better built and also more professional (with easy access to spare parts and naked filters etc). The main decision point however is which is better - a Thermoblock or Boiler approach? I'm very interested in everyone's opinions.
Sparkman Senior Member Joined: 14 Jun 2005 Posts: 358 Location: Brisbane, Australia Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: La Pavoni Bar T2/Faema... Grinder: Cimbali Cadet/Gaggia MDF
Posted Sat Jan 6, 2007, 3:49am Subject: Re: Thermoblock OR Boiler
I guess a boiler's a boiler, right?... NOT.
The Gaggia has one of the smallest boilers around and it's made of aluminium, so suffers dreadfully from galvanic corrosion. The behaviour of a Gaggia compared to a Silvia is like chalk and cheese. With that said, I still have produced a near god-shot from a Gaggia Classic, so it's certainly capable. I also like it's looks and ergonomics. Steaming is it's weak point. The steam wand is difficult to use (you have to remove the froth aiding attachment and just use the small plastic nozzle). I ended up modding my machine by adding a PID temperature controller, adjusting the brew pressure via the over pressure valve and adding a Silvia steam wand. It was the pressure and temperature modded machine that gave me the good shots.
The Sunbeam is an awesome machine on paper. It's too early to know too much about longevity, but in terms of performance it's easily a match for the Gaggia and it's steaming leaves the Gaggia for dead. Add to that that it heats up faster, has a tweakable brew temperature and steam temperature, no aluminium in the brew path (as long as the teflon on the group head remains intact).... In terms of operation, there's no temperature surfing required and it's probably heated up and ready to go in 10 minutes or less (the entire thermoblock is up to temp in about 2-3 minutes (I've measured it). This is the sort of performance most people want in a home machine; something you switch on and is ready to go in the time it takes to make your corn flakes in the morning.
Also the Sunbeam thermoblock is more thermally stable than a Gaggia Classic at normal brew rates (ie it keeps a far more stable brew temperure - again I've measured it). Add to that Sunbeams excellent customer support, and other extras and I'd say it's an open misere.
It might not be all roses, especially after the Sunbeam warranty period expires (ie how easy is it to service the machine then?), but if you view the machine as an appliance with a limited lifespan (say 5-6 years) then it's an easy choice. Nothing in that price range comes close in performance and features.
adammlowe Senior Member Joined: 6 Jan 2007 Posts: 11 Location: Brisbane Expertise: Just starting
Posted Sat Jan 6, 2007, 5:22pm Subject: Re: Thermoblock OR Boiler
Thanks for the information - it is all very useful.
Hmmm, so it seems Gaggia may not be the best option - and honestly I am not sure about Sunbeam's support and relatively untested design. Would you recommend instead a Rancilio Silvia? It is priced similarly to the Sunbeam, so I think it might be the best option then?
mechaniker Senior Member Joined: 4 Jan 2002 Posts: 11 Location: Wellington Expertise: I love coffee
Grinder: Russell Hobbs bur grinder
Posted Sat Jan 6, 2007, 7:56pm Subject: Re: Thermoblock OR Boiler
Thats useful info Sparkman as I too am looking at the Sunbeam EM6910.
Although you said "no aluminium in the brew path (as long as the teflon on the group head remains intact)" does this mean the thermoblocks are not aluminum?
Sparkman Senior Member Joined: 14 Jun 2005 Posts: 358 Location: Brisbane, Australia Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: La Pavoni Bar T2/Faema... Grinder: Cimbali Cadet/Gaggia MDF
Posted Sun Jan 7, 2007, 12:26am Subject: Re: Thermoblock OR Boiler
mechaniker Said:
Thats useful info Sparkman as I too am looking at the Sunbeam EM6910.
Although you said "no aluminium in the brew path (as long as the teflon on the group head remains intact)" does this mean the thermoblocks are not aluminum?
They use a stainless steel pipe that is encased in aluminium along with the element. So the aluminium is used where it does the most good, as a highly thermally conductive heat reservoir. However, the thermoblock actually forms the top of the group. This part of the thermoblock is coated in teflon to prevent coffee oils sticking, to use the thermoblock itself to heat the group and also to keep the aluminium out of the water path. I'm not 100% happy with this solution, but it's hard to think of a better way of doing this. It means the group is up to brewing temperature very quickly, far quicker than any other design on the market.
As for the Silvia vs Sunbeam question, that's a hard one. I'm no big fan of the Silvia, but will give it the nod in terms of longevity and robustness. Bad points are the large thermal swings during the heating cycle (need to temperature surf), really bad drip tray design (very shallow) and the need to switch between brewing and steaming and all the idiosyncracies that entails. In operation and operational simplicity, the Sunbeam is way ahead. No need to temperature surf, adjustable brew temperature, really quick turnaround between shots as the thermoblock has a remarkably fast recovery.
MJP Senior Member Joined: 24 Nov 2006 Posts: 8 Location: Urbana, IL Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Rancilio Silvia Grinder: Solis Maestro Plus Drip: Braun Roaster: I Roast2
Posted Sun Jan 7, 2007, 5:50am Subject: Re: Thermoblock OR Boiler
Although I am rather new to the delights of espresso and the wide array of coffee drinks that these machines can generate, I must say that I did not find the learning curve on the Silvia difficult. I have an adequate conical bur grinder and after a couple of days I was making espresso and cappuccino drinks that exceeded the quality found in the many coffee houses near my university. One factor that I found to be exceedingly important was the freshness of the coffee and the grind. Since I roast all of my coffee from the great green beans I always have fresh coffee. You must dial your grinder to the machine. The Silvia is all brass, stainless steel and carbon steel, the water tank, water tubes and cover are the only plastic parts that are seen (save the portafilter handle). The milk foaming/steaming capacity of the machine is remarkable. My wife loves americanos and cappuccinos. After I pull a shot, I flip on the steam switch and by the time I pour the milk, syrup and get everything ready for the frothing, (e.g. bleeding the steam frothing tube), it is ready. This is usually about 1 min. There is plenty of steam for 2 frothing pitchers. I then usually stop and refill the boiler and continue if I have guests to prepare drinks. I agree with the previous replies that you should temp surf because of the temperature swings in the boiler thermostats. But this is very easy and it becomes an almost automatic response. I have a dedicated min/sec timer next to the Silvia just for this purpose. If you wish to consider your espresso machine as a long-term investment, Silvia parts are readily available and there is a wealth of information on the web on repairing, replacing parts and making modifications. The Silvia just had a minor upgrade and it represents very good value for money. I suggest that you carefully read the espresso machine consumer reviews at coffeegeek for the Sunbeam, Giggia Classic and the Silvia before you make a final decision. These reviews are marvelous and give the experience of real people rather than salesmen/women. Good luck and Happy New Year.
adammlowe Senior Member Joined: 6 Jan 2007 Posts: 11 Location: Brisbane Expertise: Just starting
Posted Sun Jan 7, 2007, 12:58pm Subject: Re: Thermoblock OR Boiler
Thanks for your feedback.
I think I am heading towards the Silvia based on reviews and the input here. I don't mind a bit of a learning curve - I am dedicated! And I would prefer a machine that it easy to get parts (which I see for the Silvia is extremely easy) and will last. I am very concerned the Sunbeam will fail with so many electronics and unproven techniques (my Delonghi has died and it is 5 years old).
One last questions. With the silvia, once you have completed a coffee (do you do 2 at a time or always separately?) with milk, how long does it take to get back for the next round. It sounds like it is about 1 minute?
MarcS Senior Member Joined: 30 May 2006 Posts: 66 Location: Sydney Expertise: Professional
Posted Sun Jan 7, 2007, 1:24pm Subject: Re: Thermoblock OR Boiler
adammlowe,
Don't forget, if you intend to purchase a Silvia or Sunbeam EM6910, you WILL need a quality grinder... and no, the Delonghi Grinder won't be good enough.
Your Died Delonghi Coffee Machine would have allowed for substandard grinders\grinds... but not the above mentioned machines... however, the coffee experience is messurising!! :)
MJP Senior Member Joined: 24 Nov 2006 Posts: 8 Location: Urbana, IL Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Rancilio Silvia Grinder: Solis Maestro Plus Drip: Braun Roaster: I Roast2
Posted Sun Jan 7, 2007, 1:26pm Subject: Re: Thermoblock OR Boiler
Adam,
If I am making a cappuccino for my wife and me I make a double shot into two cups, I put the cups on the warming tray and press the steam switch. Then I get out my stainless steel frothing pitcher from the freezer (I put it in the freezer for about 5 min), and add syrup and cold milk (about 6 oz or about 160 ml). Then I bleed the frothing wand into a jar. About a min has elapsed before I begin to froth and steam the milk (I use a thermometer to keep from scalding the milk). I turn off the steam switch and I mix the cappuccinos. I immediately clean the wand, pass steam to flush it and remove the portafilter. I fill the boiler by cleaning the grouphead with a bowl underneath and press the brew switch. This passes steam and hot water over the screen and cleans it out but also fills the boiler. To prepare 4 cappuccinos I use a brewing pitcher and make 4 espressos, I place the filled brewing pitcher on the warming plate and switch on the steam switch. I add the espresso to 4 cups. Again I prepare the frothing pitcher (enough for 2 cappuccinos). After a min I froth the milk and pour into 2 of the cups. I keep the steam switch on, I rinse the frothing pitcher (20 oz) in cold water, add syrup and cold milk and froth. Then I pour into the remaining 2 cups. The interval between the two frothings is about 1 min or so. Again I remove the portafilter, place a bowl under the grouphead and press the brew switch until hot water flows. This indicates that the boiler is primed and ready to go. I clean up the frothing wand and pass hot water through it to make sure no milk has siphoned up into the wand. So it takes a bit of time to make 4 cappuccinos with the Silvia; but I am busy at the time so I am not too concerned. The hot cups stay warm by keeping them on the warming tray on the top of the Silvia. With biscotti, this makes a great after dinner dissert.
Symbols: = New Posts since your last visit = No New Posts since last visit = Newest post
Forum Rules: No profanity, illegal acts or personal attacks will be tolerated in these discussion boards. No commercial posting of any nature will be tolerated; only private sales by private individuals, in the "Buy and Sell" forum. No cross posting allowed - do not post your topic to more than one forum, nor repost a topic to the same forum. Who Can Read The Forum? Anyone can read posts in these discussion boards. Who Can Post New Topics? Any registered CoffeeGeek member can post new topics. Who Can Post Replies? Any registered CoffeeGeek member can post replies. Can Photos be posted? Anyone can post photos in their new topics or replies. Who can change or delete posts? Any CoffeeGeek member can edit their own posts. Only moderators can delete posts. Probationary Period: If you are a new signup for CoffeeGeek, you cannot promote, endorse, criticise or otherwise post an unsolicited endorsement for any company, product or service in your first five postings.
= No New Posts since last visit 