mechaniker Senior Member Joined: 4 Jan 2002 Posts: 11 Location: Wellington Expertise: I love coffee
Grinder: Russell Hobbs bur grinder
Posted Sun Jan 7, 2007, 8:49pm Subject: Re: Thermoblock OR Boiler
I'd be keen to know the recovery of the Sunbeam EM6910 myself. How long does it need to warm back up after a brew/steam use? Or is it "instant" due to using a thermoblock?
I'm impressed it uses SS in the brew path and not aluminum.
Also in regards to grinders, and I dont wish to highjack adammlowe's thread too much but has anyone tried the EM0480 grinder that is part of the Sunbeam Cafe Series? Its a good price here in NZ at $160ish and seems to have good features. I also somewhat trust the fact that it was designed with the help of Paul Bassett.
adammlowe Senior Member Joined: 6 Jan 2007 Posts: 11 Location: Brisbane Expertise: Just starting
Posted Sun Jan 7, 2007, 9:08pm Subject: Re: Thermoblock OR Boiler
Hi Everyone,
Thanks so much for your input - I think the Silvia may be the way to go, although I am still very tempted by the Sunbeam. The longevity really is a discerning factor for me although the increased functionality of the Sunbeam wins many points.
If there is any final comments please let me know!
I guess I shouldn't mention my La Marzocco undies or Synesso socks then.... and definitely mums the word on my Versalab electric toothbrush with low friction air bearings and capacitive feedback sensor for uber-accurate bristle positioning and ultrasonic plaque removing attachment..., which I need after drinking La Romanee Conti and listening to the harmonic resonance of the hand made Reidel goblet until my Patak Philippe watch indicates it's time for bed.
mechaniker Senior Member Joined: 4 Jan 2002 Posts: 11 Location: Wellington Expertise: I love coffee
Grinder: Russell Hobbs bur grinder
Posted Sun Jan 7, 2007, 11:05pm Subject: Re: Thermoblock OR Boiler
Hey adammlowe, I have similar issues to you about longevity, I like to buy a quality product that will last long beyond my need for it, but I would buy the Sunbeam from a store where I could buy an unlimited 5 year warranty (NZ$120 ish).
For me I'm leaning more towards the Sunbeam at the moment…
adammlowe Senior Member Joined: 6 Jan 2007 Posts: 11 Location: Brisbane Expertise: Just starting
Posted Sun Jan 7, 2007, 11:11pm Subject: Re: Thermoblock OR Boiler
I know what you mean. The 5 year warranty was going to be only an additional $79.00 (AU) which is pretty good. But parts for the silvia (and accessories) are so easily available... I'll wait a day before ordering!
Luca Moderator Joined: 27 Jan 2004 Posts: 2,639 Location: Melbourne, Australia
Espresso: H: Maver W: FB-80 Grinder: H: Super Jolly W: Brasilia... Vac Pot: Hario TCA-2 Roaster: Sample Roaster at Work
Posted Mon Jan 8, 2007, 1:25am Subject: Re: Thermoblock OR Boiler
I'm really keen to actually try one of these new dual thermo machines. I had a few shots on the EM6900 and they were decidedly sour, but it seems that sunbeam have put a relatively large amount of effort into designing and redesigning this machine, so I'm certainly not going to write off the upgraded version.
With machines in this price bracket, frankly I think that it's all about choosing the set of compromises that you can live with. With the silvia and rocky I was occasionally able to get some pretty good shots, but they were infrequent and took a fair bit of work. (Admittedly the shot quality and the frequency of good shots improved dramatically when I borrowed some friend's mazzers, which I did quite a few times during my rancilio era.) It looks to me like the sunbeam is promising OK shots with a lot less dicking around. With the silvia I reckon that most of my shots were probably 5/10 and I got the occasional 7/10. If the sunbeam offers a 6/10 consistently or a 5/10 with less effort, I might find the cost of replacing it every few years justified. Of course, my interest is purely academic, but I'd still like to try one ;P
How cool would it be if sunbeam made a version of the EM6910 with rather fewer failure-prone electronics - like by ditching the volumetrics. That said, i guess that thermoblocks are probably always going to be made with electronics and, therefore, a built-in lifespan.
mechaniker Said:
Also in regards to grinders, and I dont wish to highjack adammlowe's thread too much but has anyone tried the EM0480 grinder that is part of the Sunbeam Cafe Series? Its a good price here in NZ at $160ish and seems to have good features. I also somewhat trust the fact that it was designed with the help of Paul Bassett.
The price is certainly good - it's a lot of grinder for the money, but I think that the lack of adjustability makes it basically useless as an espresso grinder. At a mere $150 or so, I have a recurring fantasy of going and buying one for french press, cupping and vac pot!
Sparkman Senior Member Joined: 14 Jun 2005 Posts: 358 Location: Brisbane, Australia Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: La Pavoni Bar T2/Faema... Grinder: Cimbali Cadet/Gaggia MDF
Posted Mon Jan 8, 2007, 2:04am Subject: Re: Thermoblock OR Boiler
adammlowe Said:
Hi Everyone,
Thanks so much for your input - I think the Silvia may be the way to go, although I am still very tempted by the Sunbeam. The longevity really is a discerning factor for me although the increased functionality of the Sunbeam wins many points.
If there is any final comments please let me know!
Try and have a look at both the machines in question. Barazi Coffee machines has the Silvia in stock in Brisbane (they are at Boyland ave., Coopers Plains). The Sunbeam can be found at numerous department stores.
Things to consider:
Will you be making more than one or two coffees at a time? Silvia is very slow for entertaining. I missed most of my daughters birthday party making 20 or so coffee's for the parents. It took over an hour. This machine is not made for that level of production, but the Sunbeam should be able to handle it and at least cut that time in half.
However, the Silvia is fine for a morning coffee or two. It becomes a ritual, but once you know it, it's not too hard to live with. Getting Silvia nice and hot does take some time and can be aided with some flushing to heat up the group.
The drip tray on the Silvia is really one of its weakest points. It's very shallow and fills quickly, making it hard to empty without spilling some. Maybe incorporate the emptying of the drip tray into your daily ritual and it'll be fine.
One point to consider with the Silvia is that if you run the boiler too low, you can blow the element. The Silvia element is an integral part of the boiler and will run you into $300 for a replacement boiler. In the most part, this is an avoidable accident that can come about by leaving the machine on too long in conjunction with a leaky steam or 3-way valve or just turning the machine on with an empty boiler (and not filling it - this happened to me on a different machine that had a removable element). So it can happen (but very unlikely under normal operation) and is probably the most expensive breakdown that the Silvia can undergo. Again developing a routine will make this failure very improbable.
Silvia Pros: Robust Reliable Can make excellent espresso (some would say it’s a benchmark in espresso quality) Uses some commercial components Simple to work on and service
Cons: Drip tray too shallow Delay from brew to steam Delays for making more than 2 coffees (milk based) Long warm up (30-40 mins - but can be cheated) Can be fussy (ie needs operator to understand its idiosyncrasies)
Sunbeam Pros: Fast warm up (5-10 min) Can make excellent espresso Simple to operate Auto dosing Simultaneous brew and steam Fast turnaround, good for entertaining large groups User customisable temperatures for brew and steam (more of a geek feature) Uses commercial sized 58mm protafilter and baskets Looks good and is a good size for a kitchen (IMO, so disregard if you like)
Cons: Reliability in question (Sunbeam warranty is the only real peace-of-mind) Robustness (it's a lot of machine engineered to a pricepoint) Servicing may not be possible by non-Sunbeam technicians
Again, it's a hard call. No machine is the clear winner because they both have pros and cons. To combine the pros of the Silvia with the pros of the Sunbeam and eliminate most of the cons, you'd need to consider a heat exchanger machine at nearly double the price.
One last thing about the Sunbeam recovery. With my Sunbeam thermoblock based machine the recovery is extremely quick (less than 1 minute). In fact it is so quick that it's not a factor.
I'd take this machine over nearly any machine on the market (including HX machines) if it was reliable and robust. My concerns (and these may be unfounded) are for damage to the teflon coating, especially during a brew seal change and separation of the group collar from the thermoblock. The last concern is based on this fault in the EM6900 and the fact that large stresses can be put on this junction by cranking hard on the portafilter. This failure mode has been addressed in the EM6910, but how well? Time will tell.
askthecoffeeguy Senior Member Joined: 4 Jul 2005 Posts: 214 Location: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia Expertise: Professional
Espresso: Bezzera Domus Galatea Grinder: Rocky, Super Jolly Roaster: Gene Cafe Roaster
Posted Mon Jan 8, 2007, 2:30am Subject: Re: Thermoblock OR Boiler
As someone who recently bought and then on-sold a Gaggia Classic I would have to agree with the above comments, that it is in theory possible to produce quality coffee from one of these units, but the main concerns I had with the machine were as follows:
Temperature of the group head generally ran too hot and tended to scold the coffee
Too much pressure in pushing the shot out - even with 'up-dosing' the extraction tended to be a bit on the bitter side for my liking, and the shot still rushed out, which did not give a rue reading of the coffee quality. i.e. is was hard to taste the individual expression of the beans in question
Which is not to say that the machine didn't produce a half decent coffee, with a bit of tweaking, but the result was incomparable to a HX machine
It's horses for courses, really, as a dual thermoblock machine allows for (in theory at least) simultaneous extraction and milk heating, whereas the Classic is fine if you are only making two coffees a day.
Would still look at spending equivalent amount on grinder and espresso machine, though, which has to be factored into the overall scheme of things.
Whatever the budget stretches to, combined with the level of user experience, is a pretty good indicator of what machine is right for the individual.
Che Phat
The crema which dissipates is not the lasting crema...
adammlowe Senior Member Joined: 6 Jan 2007 Posts: 11 Location: Brisbane Expertise: Just starting
Posted Mon Jan 8, 2007, 2:44am Subject: Re: Thermoblock OR Boiler
Thanks Mark, once again that is fantastic advice. It sounds like in reality the Sunbeam may be more practical to my needs (it is actually what I was leaning towards in the beginning, and it comes in a snazzy red!) although I too are conscerned about the robustness. I'll take a drive out to Barazi Coffee this week and check out both machines.
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