Espressoboy Senior Member Joined: 19 May 2004 Posts: 27 Location: Sydney, Australia Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Nouva Simonelli 3 Group (Mac... Grinder: G. Rossi Vac Pot: n/a Drip: yes Roaster: yes
Posted Thu Jun 3, 2004, 6:46am Subject: Help with Grinding! (Faz/Paul, Please come in!)
Dear Community members,
I recently read an interesting article by Phillip Pucci <<Grind Your Way to Perfection>> and noted the following phrases: "When the crema is a dense example that does not fade after a number of minutes and the time taken to produce this 30ml espresso is 30s, we have finally found the correctl grind setting. All that remains is to check that we receive this quality of product consitently, time to time."
Is it necessarily and true that the 30ml in 30s rule to be obeyed for a perfect grind??? I have been to few coffee houses and saw 30ml espresso came down in 15-22s time. The response I get from the PBTB/barista was that "we need to be bit flexibilty with our working enviroment, the 30s rule is not necessarily true... for example in some machines (such as the nouva simonelli) the water flow might be coming down more quicker(so lesser than 30s is okay) than other machines such as the ECM Ven. ones...(which Toby Estates use, and they told me 28s... : P).
Other things I rather check is the creme, the hard/dry biscult and its color, and of course the after taste. Can any one suggest me how to improve my grinding technics....
BTW, I also read that we do need to change the grind setting to maintain our "perfect grind" with constantly changing weather, is this also true? how do I do it? To be honest, I never did that and I found my coffee taste not too much different between rainny and sunny days???
jim_schulman Senior Member Joined: 19 Dec 2001 Posts: 3,772 Location: Chicago Expertise: I live coffee
Posted Thu Jun 3, 2004, 12:37pm Subject: Re: Help with Grinding! (Faz/Paul, Please come in!)
It's a contentious topic.
If you want the same volume, the same timing, and the same finishing pour color for every shot; the grind and tamp have to be ultra consistent. One has to compensate for changing humidity, aging of the beans, minor changes in shot temperature if there's a lot of steaming, etc. etc, etc.
However, I sincerely doubt that the shot suffers if one misses these "perfect" parameters slightly. My personal experience suggests that if one finishes the shot consistently at the same pour color, small variations in volume and time do not matter. A higher volume, shorter time pour may taste a little brighter and less concentrated, and vice versa; but the shots will be good.
I believe that those obsessing over timing have fallen into the "auto-dosing" trap, where the machine dispenses a fixed amount of liquid automatically. If one doesn't have the freedom to end the shot when the color is right, one has to be a perfectionist about grind and tamp.
In a busy bar, with a skilled barista, the perfectionist approach makes good sense. There's little time to observe each shot; but plenty of opportunities to make fine tweaks to the grinder setting. At home, making a shot every few hours, the story is different: there's plenty of time to watch the pour; but few opportunities to fine tune the grind. In the home setting, attending to the pour makes more sense than dumping shots until the grind is perfect.
ant Senior Member Joined: 7 May 2003 Posts: 1,044 Location: Brisbane Expertise: I like coffee
Espresso: sunbeam em6910 Grinder: sunbeam em0480 Vac Pot: hario syphon Roaster: 1kg sample roaster at work
Posted Thu Jun 3, 2004, 7:59pm Subject: Re: Help with Grinding! (Faz/Paul, Please come in!)
In the past 2 weeks working in a coffee cart I've been following the above advice and I find myself able to produce more consistent tasting shots although the volume might range from about 23-26mL. So far the humidity changes inherent with being outdoors makes it extremely difficult to get the perfect pour every single time when the humidity jumps up and down (eg. on an overcast and then sunny day). I believe that within a more stable environment, you won't need to do anywhere near as much changing of the grind to get a 'perfect' shot. For instance, today I made about 7 adjustments of the grind between 6.45am - 11.45am and I still wasn't 100% happy. The most unfortunate thing that I find is that the more I improve, the higher my standards get. So perfect just doesn't seem to be attainable to me since there are far too many factors that I have no control of, but at least the journey is fun :)
Espressoboy Senior Member Joined: 19 May 2004 Posts: 27 Location: Sydney, Australia Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Nouva Simonelli 3 Group (Mac... Grinder: G. Rossi Vac Pot: n/a Drip: yes Roaster: yes
Posted Sun Jun 6, 2004, 5:45am Subject: Re: Help with Grinding! (Faz/Paul, Please come in!)
Thanks guys for the advices... I knew that humity and how old/fresh the beans are would affect the extractions, but how do we go and changing the grinder settings to reflect the changing enviroment... eg. for a more humity day do we grind it finer or coarser.. thanx.. your advices would be greatly appreciated!
CoffeeForLife Senior Member Joined: 10 May 2004 Posts: 47 Location: Lorn Expertise: Professional
Espresso: ECM Rafaelo, Verona, San... Grinder: Mazzer Super Jolly,...
Posted Sun Jun 6, 2004, 11:04pm Subject: Re: Help with Grinding! (Faz/Paul, Please come in!)
There is also the size of the basket. The more coffee the longer the possible shot. For instance I know someone using a 23gr basket as a single currently which if you did the calculations, the shot pour would be 73 seconds assuming , 7 grams/ 30ml /23-25sec
I have three machines with very different baskets, which I interchange depending on the situation in which I use them.
It seems that when the grinder blades heat up the grind becomes coarser and on my wega grinder the top blade slips because the rubber grommet holding it in place doesn't quite cut the mustard.
There are many variables but if you are using the same equipment day in and day out one should be able to adapt to it.
I pour until the shot is ready. ( watching for colour change and viscosity)
Here are some places to start with reading about just about everything. But basically there are several ways to get to the same conclusion with slightly differing taste results.
Generally, the drier the air is, the less moisture the coffee grounds take in from the atmosphere, leading to a 'finer' grind. I should emphasise that how fine you grind is also dependent on how hard you tamp, how much you pack into the portafilter, how much the portafilter can hold, whether you 'collapse' the grounds into the portafilter to try to fit in as much coffee without airspaces in between before tamping, pump pressure (8-10bars), how long you run the extraction and certain other variables like whether the planets are aligned :)
An example of differing styles is that my boss' packing process utilises a finer grind lighter, tamp style and I personally grind about 3ish notches coarser and tamp harder. The difference between his packing and mine is probably about 15-20-ish pounds and there is a noticeable taste difference as well. A roaster I visited recently had deeper baskets and used a coarse-ish grind and light tamp to produce a thin bodied and bright (acidic) espresso with his beans.
So the best thing is to try to find a method that suits you and your own setup. Most of the fun is in the experimentation imo :)
Espressoboy Senior Member Joined: 19 May 2004 Posts: 27 Location: Sydney, Australia Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Nouva Simonelli 3 Group (Mac... Grinder: G. Rossi Vac Pot: n/a Drip: yes Roaster: yes
Posted Mon Jun 7, 2004, 6:02am Subject: Re: Help with Grinding! (Faz/Paul, Please come in!)
Thank guys again.. Especially Hazza, the informations was really useful, i learning the theories now, just needed to get some hand on practices... :) btw, do you work in the coffee industry?
Symbols: = New Posts since your last visit = No New Posts since last visit = Newest post
Forum Rules: No profanity, illegal acts or personal attacks will be tolerated in these discussion boards. No commercial posting of any nature will be tolerated; only private sales by private individuals, in the "Buy and Sell" forum. No cross posting allowed - do not post your topic to more than one forum, nor repost a topic to the same forum. Who Can Read The Forum? Anyone can read posts in these discussion boards. Who Can Post New Topics? Any registered CoffeeGeek member can post new topics. Who Can Post Replies? Any registered CoffeeGeek member can post replies. Can Photos be posted? Anyone can post photos in their new topics or replies. Who can change or delete posts? Any CoffeeGeek member can edit their own posts. Only moderators can delete posts. Probationary Period: If you are a new signup for CoffeeGeek, you cannot promote, endorse, criticise or otherwise post an unsolicited endorsement for any company, product or service in your first five postings.
= No New Posts since last visit 