PhilBy Senior Member Joined: 6 Aug 2004 Posts: 6 Location: Watford, Herts, UK Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: DeLongi Caffe Firenze Grinder: Burr Vac Pot: Cafetiere
Posted Fri Aug 6, 2004, 7:49am Subject: Nespresso, Pod or Ground?
I'm looking for a good espresso machine, preferably one available from John Lewis to put on our wedding list (ever the optimist).
I really fancy the Francis! Francis! X1, but I've seen many variable reviews (although many were from the US and seemed to be caused by the lower voltage there), and it's rather expensive to request as a gift. There was an assistant in John Lewis expounding about the Krups Novo FNC3, but again, reviews can be scathing (I also had to tell her that it took ESE pods).
I went into Selfridges on Oxford Street, and a very nice lady from Nespresso gave me a spiel and more importantly, made a shot from one of the machines. I've always been wary of Nespresso, being a Nestle company, and thus responsible for Gold Blend and promoting formula milk for thirld-world babies (do I have my priorities wrong there?), but the shot she produced just by pulling a lever was deep in flavour and light in texture, just like the best coffee-shop shots.
The F!F! machines and the Krups both take ground coffee and ESE Pods, which would seem my optimal solution, as I generally prefer to grind my own beans, but would like something quick and simple in the morning, but I haven't been able to test out either type of machine. My current Cafe Firenze really doesn't seem to cut it - it varies between good strong coffee and bitter muck depending on my technique, but doesn't give me that cup which "tastes like fresh coffee smells" - the best description of espresso I've read (can't remember where).
So...
- Any recommendations as far as reasonably priced machines (Say, under £200-£300)? I'm now looking at the Gaggia Classic or Baby (or Baby D) as options as well as those mentioned above. - Do ESE Pod machines make good espresso as easily as the Nespressos? - Are Nespresso Evil? (I'm reasonably serious here - though I wouldn't deny myself the odd KitKat based on the ethics of a company as some would, I would rather not tie myself entirely into the produce of one company who are **ALLEDGEDLY** responsible for acting - shall we say - not in the best interests of the third world).
korngold Senior Member Joined: 21 Jul 2003 Posts: 630 Location: Des Moines, IA Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Rancilio Audrey Grinder: Rancilio Rocky Vac Pot: Bialetti Moka Pot (not vac) Drip: Melitta Clarity Roaster: WE Popcorn Pumper/Poppery I
Posted Fri Aug 6, 2004, 8:22am Subject: Re: Nespresso, Pod or Ground?
As most will tell you around here, I'd steer clear of both pods and "capsules" (or whatever nespresso is). Ground is definitely the way to go.
Who makes the "Cafe Firenze" you have now? If it's a pump machine with a commercial group (58mm) and unpressurized portafilter, I'd keep your current machine & request a really good grinder, which would probably come in at a lower price than the FFX1.
Posted Fri Aug 6, 2004, 8:25am Subject: Re: Nespresso, Pod or Ground?
Illy or anoy other pods will not produce 'perfect' espresso by coffeegeek standards, which you can get with fresh ground, fesh roasted, high quality beans, a good grinder, and a good machine. However, IMO Illy pods will easily and quickly produce extremely good espresso, with no learning curve and minimal mess. Be aware that they are more expensive per serving though there is no coffee wasted. Depending on the quantities your drink it may be financially worthwhile to get a grinder:
[financially: Illy pods run $10 for 18 singles. If you drink singles, that's OK. But if you drink doubles, you need to pull two pods (there are no double pods) so that's about $1/double. Conversely, a half pound of coffee (450g) is readily available for $10 or less, and will make ~25 doubles per 450 grams before waste (15 gram doubles will make 30; 20 gram doubles will make 23).
SO.... for every 20 doubles you drink, it costs you about $10 more to use pods. A good grinder like a Rocky will pay for itself in about 500 doubles--many people here drink taht by themselves and certainly many households drink that per year. You can always buy preground coffee if you live near a place where you can get it every day; they'll grind it for free and it's as cheap as whole bean though not as good.]
If you're willing to get the X5 instead of the X1 you might register for the Illy promotion. You get a machine for $250 and are committed to buying a at least of 18 pounds of coffee (3 pounds every other month) at $22/pound or $66 bimonthly. You can also opt for pods, 72 pods for $42 bimonthly. Illy is excellent coffee IMO--though there is probably better out there, there is certainly nothing wrong with Illy and many people prefer it. the promo charges more for coffee than I might pay locally, so over a year it'll cost me about an extra $100 or a little less. But you save far more than $100 on the machine and cups so I it's still a good deal if you find the coffee acceptable.
I have an X5 if you haven't guessed and to be honest I think the reviews are a tad harsh. Realistically it matters who you are: if you're the type who waxes poetic about the wonders of Yergacheffe and the amber notes of your favorite blend you will probably be happier with a nice Gaggia. If you're like me and you really like coffee (all kinds from drip to espresso) but you talk about it as "excellent, really good, or bad" as opposed to discussing herbal notes, then you'll be happy with a Francis. It will make extremely good espresso by most standards.
PhilBy Senior Member Joined: 6 Aug 2004 Posts: 6 Location: Watford, Herts, UK Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: DeLongi Caffe Firenze Grinder: Burr Vac Pot: Cafetiere
Posted Fri Aug 6, 2004, 8:35am Subject: Re: Nespresso, Pod or Ground?
The Firenze is by DeLongi; think it cost about £35 (~$50?). It's a steam-driven machine (hence tends to burn) and you have to put the right amount of water into it for each shot, rather than just having a tank you can fill from time to time. Thus making multiple shots is difficult (and you have to vent all the steam before removing the portafilter to avoid exploding the puck), and the whole thing's usually just too much in the morning.
I do have and use a burr grinder - was again fairly cheap, £20 from Boots, but it's far better than my old blade grinder.
Ian Moderator Joined: 21 Jan 2003 Posts: 1,161 Location: England
Espresso: Euro2000,Rancilio Grinder: Mazzer,La Cimbali Vac Pot: Cona-->CraigA Drip: Belgique for emergencies Roaster: Primas with variac
Posted Fri Aug 6, 2004, 3:08pm Subject: Re: Nespresso, Pod or Ground?
Almost everyone I know who has got married in the last few years has had a wedding list at John Lewis, by all means get your crockery & linen etc. but try and resist the urge to get your machine from there :-)
Next time you're in Oxford Street, call in on the House of Fraser (4th Floor) Gaggia section and ask for the main man James Hoffmann (aka kingseven) who is there most days except Fridays & Sundays. I am sure he will be able to help you decide between fresh ground and pods.
Posted Sat Aug 7, 2004, 6:00am Subject: Re: Nespresso, Pod or Ground?
Thanks Ian.
Nespresso will always deliver good crema. They are quite an interesting system that have an inbuilt "crema disc" in each capsule. The machine also use their pumps slightly differently. They will always produce a good crema, but it is a very fluffy one - similar to pressured handle machines. The coffee they use in them is far coarser than normal espresso coffee and they use about 5.5g per shot.
Anyway - pods are a good system because they are always reasonably fresh upon opening and a variety of companies now produce them (to the ESE standard). However, because of their preground nature they will never be able to quite scale the heady heights of proper freshly ground but they are useful things to have sat in the back of the cupboard. So ideally a machine that is both pod and ground capable is ideal. You get the ease and relative freshness of pods, but should you want more/better/fresher you can grab a decent grinder and off you go.....
hander Senior Member Joined: 27 Aug 2004 Posts: 4 Location: London Expertise: I love coffee
Posted Fri Aug 27, 2004, 12:22pm Subject: Re: Nespresso, Pod or Ground?
Aint the internet grand?
Pretty much the exact same question I have. Nestle's practices have been ALLEGEDLY poor and have ALLEGEDLY not improved. So is this machine out of the question?
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