Posted Fri Aug 1, 2008, 10:58am Subject: Re: Do you dare rate Pittsburgh's coffee bars?
beaverfallscoffee Said:
Does anyone know anything about Three Rivers Coffee Roasters? (http://www.threeriverscoffeeroasters.com) They carry Daterra and FVH, but I don't think I know anyone from their operation.
Looks like another guy/gal who's roasting in their basement. The address given (on the order page) is a residential area in Mt. Lebo. But the website text has the right concepts, so we'll have to ferret whomever this is out one of these days.
avogadro Said:
New location: Southpoint/SouthpointII. I still haven't settled on a business proposal I'm happy with yet. The profitability estimates sit inside a pretty wide margin due mostly to not knowing what realistic rush hour production volumes can efficiently be. Being familiar with the volume I can handle personally (drive-thru business model) doesn't translate directly to the application I am thinking of. In addition, I have no idea what kind of time food service adds to your average transaction.
Southpointe, eh? There's a good size captive market over there.
On the food, the margins can be good, but it takes time to figure out waste while you're building a customer base, so expect to lose margin initially. If you're going to use prepared stuff, figure you're going to need extra freezer. Some stuff is pretty easy to do yourself - muffins, coffeecakes, cupcakes, an abbreviated panini menu. Other stuff isn't worth the work. Next time you catch me in the shop I can discuss details.
Posted Fri Aug 1, 2008, 4:14pm Subject: Re: Do you dare rate Pittsburgh's coffee bars?
Since we are talking about new stores opening... has anyone else noticed how Crazy Mocha has taken over just about every Cool Beans store downtown? I think the T Station, PPG, and both Mellon shops have been or are about to turn over to the goat. It's kind of hilarious.
I usually don't rate or critique other businesses- but I'm going on record as saying that place is just plain horrible (from a coffee perspective). I never cease to be amazed when I see 6 or more active airpots at any given time- no doubt serving up some fudge brownie flavored swill. I bet they'll open up a spot in Southpoint... wherever that is :)
One of the problems (we) quality focused retailers face is the low expectations set by ubiquitous low end fast food slingers- I'm including just about all of the major chains and quite frankly a large number of local places that don't get mentioned on CG. Everybody calls their business a "coffee shop" when they give coffee the same level of importance as their sandwiches, smoothies, wifi, comfy couches, hipster kids, etc. It's become a catch all category for any type of restaurant that isn't really a restaurant.
We need more good places around the city so people can understand there is something better out there. By serving crap to the masses they're training customers to "doctor up" their drinks with flavors and loads of sugar and cream. Customers do it unconsciously because that's how they've always "enjoyed" it. On another note the good places need to stick to their guns and not associate with the fast foodies by selling milkshakes and perpetuating the notion that we're the same type of business.
jakeliefer Senior Member Joined: 3 Dec 2007 Posts: 27 Location: Beaver Falls, PA Expertise: I live coffee
Posted Fri Aug 1, 2008, 7:23pm Subject: Re: Do you dare rate Pittsburgh's coffee bars?
21streetcoffee Said:
We need more good places around the city so people can understand there is something better out there. By serving crap to the masses they're training customers to "doctor up" their drinks with flavors and loads of sugar and cream. Customers do it unconsciously because that's how they've always "enjoyed" it. On another note the good places need to stick to their guns and not associate with the fast foodies by selling milkshakes and perpetuating the notion that we're the same type of business.
That brings up an interesting point that I've been thinking about, perhaps you could help from your perspective. I've been wondering if the shops that specialize in quality round up a small niche of people and the rest that want sugar-bombs go to shops such as Crazy Mocha, OR if in the process of being a non-syrup centered shop, we convert people from chocolate-caramel-mint triple mochas to a 8oz latte?
I think 21st St serves as a great model for showcasing quality coffee, but my million dollar question is, can a limited, syrup-free, frap-free menu coffeeshop be replicated everywhere? I hope I'm not sounding like a hater, because I certainly desire more people and more shops to become passionate about coffee.
Posted Fri Aug 1, 2008, 7:31pm Subject: Re: Do you dare rate Pittsburgh's coffee bars?
Luke, I agree with a lot of what you said, although I don't necessarily think that all "coffeeshops" should serve only coffee. Historically, coffeeshop has been a convivial, hang-out sort of place--the problem isn't the "third place" concept, but that it has been co-opted by large, faceless chains. I think there is all sorts of room for different sorts of "coffeeshops", from the standing bar to the hang out and everywhere in between.
The difference between good coffeeshops of whatever sort and bad ones, in my opinion, is how they feature the coffee in whatever drinks they have, including milkshakes if applicable: can you taste the coffee, is it fresh and well-prepared or can you taste only sugar and milk? Some folks don't like our blended drinks because you can taste the freshly-prepared espresso in them, but we want to make sure our coffee blended drinks aren't "just" milkshakes--the provenance of ice cream stores, stolen by fast foodies, for what it is worth.
For example, I've been thinking a lot about flavored coffees (which we do not sell or roast), especially because of a less-than-stellar customer interaction recently. They obviously are popular and my thought isn't to abandon the concept, but transform it into something quality. Ken Davids points the way, although I don't know if he intended to, by giving recipes for flavord coffees with actual spices and zests in the back of his home-roasting book. The more and more I ponder it, the more I'm impress with the opportunity to take great spices and great coffee to create something that wasn't there before (much like the concept of blending different coffees together to create a proprietary blend like Black Cat et al.). Now I think there are boundaries (I'm not sure what spices to put together to create a truly culinary "fudge brownie" coffee, but I think if anyone figures it out, Armaggedon might just start). It gives the barista a great challenge also since blending spices and coffee is much more difficult than adding a pump of syrup--especially since the spice has to be added pre-brew, meaning by-the-cup preparation for flavored coffees.
caferacer Senior Member Joined: 22 Mar 2004 Posts: 93 Location: NYC Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Expobar Pulser Grinder: Rocky
Posted Sat Aug 2, 2008, 4:53am Subject: Re: Do you dare rate Pittsburgh's coffee bars?
Luke!!
Thank you for the phone call. I wasn't able to get to your shop until after my meeting but I'm really glad I did. Ordered my usual espresso and was asked if I wanted ceramic. Nice. Did not realize I was going to be treated to Black Cat, also nice. A very enjoyable shot and great conversation. It must get mobbed there during rushes. BTW, the Frick building is spectacular. I also checked out the Union Trust building across the street. They are both like walking back in time. You have a beautiful city.
Posted Sat Aug 2, 2008, 11:58am Subject: Re: Do you dare rate Pittsburgh's coffee bars?
Luke!!
Thank you for the phone call. I wasn't able to get to your shop until after my meeting but I'm really glad I did. Ordered my usual espresso and was asked if I wanted ceramic. Nice. Did not realize I was going to be treated to Black Cat, also nice. A very enjoyable shot and great conversation. It must get mobbed there during rushes. BTW, the Frick building is spectacular. I also checked out the Union Trust building across the street. They are both like walking back in time. You have a beautiful city.
Regards from Brooklyn,
Robey
Alexis (my wife) said you had stopped in to the downtown bar- glad we could help you out with your coffee emergency. The Frick Building is pretty neat and there are a lot of cool old buildings downtown. We used to live in Hoboken NJ, so we're pretty familiar with Brooklyn and have some friends that still live there (and call our state "Pennsyltucky"). Spread the good word of the 'burgh to your friends in Brooklyn.
Posted Sat Aug 2, 2008, 12:34pm Subject: Re: Do you dare rate Pittsburgh's coffee bars?
That brings up an interesting point that I've been thinking about, perhaps you could help from your perspective. I've been wondering if the shops that specialize in quality round up a small niche of people and the rest that want sugar-bombs go to shops such as Crazy Mocha, OR if in the process of being a non-syrup centered shop, we convert people from chocolate-caramel-mint triple mochas to a 8oz latte?
There is room in the Pittsburgh marketplace for the Starbucks, Crazy Mochas, etc. alongside the true quality focused businesses, just as you have dime a dozen pizza shops as well as italian restaurants that serve a better, more authentic pie. I think both types of businesses will exist for a long time, and in fact they may share customers. Sometimes you want convenience even though you know there is something way better just a little out of your way. Sometimes people are just cheap and don't realize that all "coffee shops" are not created equal. The thing is that the coffee business is a quick service business, and because it's fast to order and get what you want it has taken on the perception of fast food in many customer's minds. This "have it your way" mentality allows customers to recreate bad drinks ordered at fast food chains at the quality shops and bypass the chance of that customer trying something you'd be proud to serve. We have syrups still, we just don't feature them on the menu and don't recommend them... but we'll make a vanilla (or even raspberry!) latte if you ask. I saw syrups at Vivace in Seattle- a wall of them. There's just a certain point when the drink becomes more about other things (milk and flavoring) than about coffee- and that's where we need to start drawing the line. Other cities are a little farther along in this regard than Pittsburgh- so it can be tough sledding sometimes. Customers that ask "what kind of lattes do you have" need to learn what coffee is supposed to taste like and they might enjoy it. As corny as it sounds, you need to be able to feel good about what you're serving.
I think 21st St serves as a great model for showcasing quality coffee, but my million dollar question is, can a limited, syrup-free, frap-free menu coffeeshop be replicated everywhere? I hope I'm not sounding like a hater, because I certainly desire more people and more shops to become passionate about coffee.
Thanks- we try our best, as do most all the folks that participate in this kind of forum. I don't think it can be replicated everywhere (as I stated we do have syrups) but I don't think there are that many shop owners out there yet that really want to and have the ability to pull it off. I would like to see more of this type of business, because if we're only a few degrees away from the chains how is a customer supposed to be able to tell the difference?
Posted Sat Aug 2, 2008, 12:57pm Subject: Re: Do you dare rate Pittsburgh's coffee bars?
The following are simply my opinions and reflect how we choose to run our business- of course some folks may disagree and that's cool because it's a free country and who want's to live in a world where everyone does things the same way...
Luke, I agree with a lot of what you said, although I don't necessarily think that all "coffeeshops" should serve only coffee. Historically, coffeeshop has been a convivial, hang-out sort of place--the problem isn't the "third place" concept, but that it has been co-opted by large, faceless chains. I think there is all sorts of room for different sorts of "coffeeshops", from the standing bar to the hang out and everywhere in between.
The term "coffee shop" is starting to irritate me like the term "barista". McCafe will have "baristas" soon, too- like calling someone that slaps a reheated burger on some bread a chef.
The look/feel/theme of a business is VERY important. It's critical to convey the right message to your customers- we want our place to be comfortable, warm, and approachable but clean and minimalist at the same time. That being said, the look/feel/theme should not be the primary reason you draw customers, unless you're in the interior decorating business. You can't be the best everything to everyone, you have to choose one thing you want to be known for... the main priority (if you want to advertise yourself as being in the coffee business) SHOULD BE THE COFFEE. PERIOD. If customers are going to remember ONE thing about a place- what do you want it to be? The Crazy Mocha guy says that his places are about having a cool place to hang out. WTF? I guess while you're sitting here on your laptop updating your myspace you can slurp down a 40oz frappe-freeze-a-cino.
The difference between good coffeeshops of whatever sort and bad ones, in my opinion, is how they feature the coffee in whatever drinks they have, including milkshakes if applicable: can you taste the coffee, is it fresh and well-prepared or can you taste only sugar and milk? Some folks don't like our blended drinks because you can taste the freshly-prepared espresso in them, but we want to make sure our coffee blended drinks aren't "just" milkshakes--the provenance of ice cream stores, stolen by fast foodies, for what it is worth.
I love dairy queen blizzards- with snickers. They're really good and I could have one every day. I wouldn't mind offering a really awesome milkshake in the summertime- but I just can't put coffee in it. We used to blend drinks, but over the past year we've decided that if you treat the coffee like a flavor shot or sugar delivery device, so will your customers. I have no doubt that the drinks you're talking about taste really great, but last summer we made so many of those things it was kinda ridiculous. I feel better about serving cold brewed iced coffee and fresh brewed iced tea. It's just something we feel really strongly about.
For example, I've been thinking a lot about flavored coffees (which we do not sell or roast), especially because of a less-than-stellar customer interaction recently. They obviously are popular and my thought isn't to abandon the concept, but transform it into something quality. Ken Davids points the way, although I don't know if he intended to, by giving recipes for flavord coffees with actual spices and zests in the back of his home-roasting book. The more and more I ponder it, the more I'm impress with the opportunity to take great spices and great coffee to create something that wasn't there before (much like the concept of blending different coffees together to create a proprietary blend like Black Cat et al.). Now I think there are boundaries (I'm not sure what spices to put together to create a truly culinary "fudge brownie" coffee, but I think if anyone figures it out, Armaggedon might just start). It gives the barista a great challenge also since blending spices and coffee is much more difficult than adding a pump of syrup--especially since the spice has to be added pre-brew, meaning by-the-cup preparation for flavored coffees.
turkish coffee is a type of flavored coffee because it's typically served with cardamom. You're talking about more of a sig-drink style of service and that's pretty cool. It could work really well as long as you keep it simple, choose recipes that work, and don't deviate from your ideas and let customers create their own. I'd like to make vanilla lattes with real vanilla, but for now we use the monin- it is pretty tasty :)
Posted Sat Aug 2, 2008, 1:01pm Subject: Re: Do you dare rate Pittsburgh's coffee bars?
Well said.
Monin is pretty tasty (and HFCS free, as I'm sure you know). We aren't to the point of spice flavoring our coffees yet, but that is where we are headed.
jakeliefer Senior Member Joined: 3 Dec 2007 Posts: 27 Location: Beaver Falls, PA Expertise: I live coffee
Posted Mon Aug 4, 2008, 3:55pm Subject: Re: Do you dare rate Pittsburgh's coffee bars?
Congrats on another article Luke! I was reading about the Strip today in the trib and saw that your shop is featured. Link here: Click Here (www.pittsburghlive.com)
How many articles have you been in now!? 30? Any secret to your success? Lots of free coffee for the reporters?
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